Rabbit raid?

[MaryHammond]

1. Reportedly Debe requested that HRS wait for the warrant off of her property. The sheriff's department refused.

2. Understand this is a culling rabbitry. In other words, people who could not bring themselves to slaughter their own rabbits, brought them to Debe to do so. I don't remember now if those rabbits went to the zoo or to a reptile group, but nevertheless, not all the rabbits in the photos were Debe's. I believe 20 of them, could be wrong, had just been dumped at Debe's by another breeder a couple days before and Debe was to slaughter them over the upcoming weekend. So those may be some of the rabbits in the pics.
Remember, people never dump, cull or slaughter rabbits that are in excellent condition, not sick, not matted etc. Rabbits that are ready to slaughter tend to be in really poor condition unless someone has raised them specifically as meat rabbits and they would look prime.
Angoras though? May be a mess before slaughter. It depends on what the rabbit's particular problem is.

One of the issues affecting reactions to the Bell case is people forget rabbits ARE livestock. They are not the little house pets living on white wall to wall carpeting in the living room as put out by HRS. If people are highly affected by HRS propaganda they will be horribly shocked at what are fairly normal conditions in Debe's barn. One of the reasons I only keep less than 12 rabbits at a time is because sorry, they poop and make huge messes.

Another reason people are seriously anti Debe at times is because she does slaughter. The fact is, this is a farm, slaughter is legal, done humanely, as dictated by SPCA and USDA, and rabbit meat is very big business in this country. HRS would like people to believe otherwise. Yet millions of pounds of frozen rabbit meat is produced for grocery chains every year.

But if people are of the bent that rabbits are like dogs and cats, well...that will seriously prejudice their view of Debe.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Understand this is a culling rabbitry. In other words, people who could not bring themselves to slaughter their own rabbits, brought them to Debe to do so.

Is there any documentation of this? Would be interested to know if things like the matted angoras were brought in for slaughter. If so, hope their are record books, etc. for acquisition date, etc.​

 

[sommrluv]

The reason I said the thread was getting to the "pointless" stage is because you cannot have a reasonable discourse with someone who uses between four and seven exclamation points at the end of every sentence.

It comes across as if the person is yelling, angry, unstable...I have better things to do than try to exchange opinions with certain posters who have no desire to do the same.

Here is the link to the radio shows. The dates were 8/17 and 8/18. There were a few hours of show there and I have listened to most of it. I'm not familiar with the DJ at all, I think he's local to her area. The photos she commented on were those released by the sheriff, and you can be confident they are the same because they are also hosted on the website on the radio show, along with those she took.

http://www.khow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=fullshow_boyles

I think some are misunderstanding my opinions here. We're farm people. I didn't grow up on a farm, but I come from generations of farmers. My hubby grew up on a farm. We have animals and our neighbors are farmers. I'm not stranger to what a livestock operation looks like and the work it takes to keep your head above water. I also wouldn't make assumptions and give people a lot of credit for off days.

When I first heard about "the raid" I was outraged for her. Most of the info put out with the shocking details was put out by Debe Bell herself. I was shocked and angered by what I heard and couldn't believe that LEO acted in this way. Than more details emerged. Pictures came out. The search was conducted legally and LEO is within their jurisdiction to call in local shelters to aid in large seizures. It keeps your taxes low, frankly. Also, there were two independent vets there. It was stated they were not affiliated with the HRS but I have no idea if they are familiar with rabbits or not.

I think tensions are running high for a few reasons..

No one wants to believe any farmer, especially one who is known to many people personally, would knowingly neglect their animals.

There is a lot of confusion regarding the law, and someone's rights when it comes to these types of situations. However, according to what has been reported, the letter of the law has been followed.

What changed my mind personally about the entire situation has more to do with what comes out of Ms. Bell's own mouth and those representing her, than anything the LEO reported. She stated in one of the first interviews that police just came onto the land and entered the barn. There were other statements by her along the same types of lines that she later retracted. It just puts your antennae up when someone starts twisting the truth to serve their purposes when they are supposedly innocent.

She stated that she is proud of the condition her barn is in and see's no problem with the amount of feces in the cages. It's obvious not just from the amount but from the staining on the cages that the manure has been there a while, and in some cases, higher than the piles there. There were also other statements about each cage was marked with ribbons and large placards, where in even her own pictures, it's clothespins on some cages, not on others. There are just a lot of inconsistencies about little stuff.

She states that the crocks look like that within a few hours, but you can see the obviously staining and caked on items that were dry, that those crocks were not clean a few hours before. She also stated that every cage has an auto waterer, and than in a different interview she said that she personally fills the crocks twice a day.

In the tapes, she does back track a little on the state of the cages and falls back on the excuse that she needs to work a full time job, and rabbits don't pay the bills, so she needs to do whatever needs to be done on the weekends. Personally, this is a crappy excuse in my opinion. While you might need a full time job to pay the bills and that's a necessity, keeping 200 rabbits is not something you are forced to do...if you cannot care for those rabbits in a reasonable manner in your free time, than you have too many. I would personally love to have more animals, a lot more animals. But we've made the decision that we have as many as we can keep in the conditions we would prefer to keep them in. That's what you do, when you are an adult.

Mostly, I keep going back to the "I'm proud of my barn" statement. Even in the pictures she took to give more of her side, I think the cages are a mess. I am also uncomfortable with the reasoning that the conditions the angoras are in were ok, because they were going to be put to death. By her own time table they were that severely matted for a few days...so severely matted the animal couldn't pass urine or feces. I don't care how many hours you work, it doesn't take long to kill a rabbit. I don't think it's ok to keep an animal in that condition for days.

As far as the animals looking clean, we all know rabbits will stay as clean as possible. And we also know most common issues that come from being kept in bad conditions, you can't see until you open the animal up. So I guess I just personally don't give a lot of credence to the whole "but they look bright eyed" mindset.

My observations are made from being a casual reader and listener. I certainly didn't come through her interviews and listen to every single word. I might have found more inconsistencies if I did, possibly.

But in all the arguments, I have yet to see someone really address her own statements, or justify them. But I don't think anyone is doing themselves any favors by automatically assuming that pictures are photo-shopped, animals are planted, pictures were staged, and laws were broken. It makes someone look paranoid and a little nutty.

And I'm interested in the news updates because I'm curious if there's more information that could possibly clear here. I don't assume to be anyone's judge and jury, but I will say I'm leaning to the LEO's side pretty heavily. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Okie Amazon]

Uhm.... last I heard, here in America, you get a warrant, stating what you are looking for and where, BEFORE you enter someones' property, not several hours later.

 

[sommrluv]

The police were given a tour by her ex, a co-habitant. When they found violations they called for a warrant. Totally legal.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Cohabitants don't have the power to consent to search of the whole of the property. Only that which is theirs to use. The state has the obligation to prove that they had no reason to doubt at the time that the ex had the power to consent to the search of the barn.

The cop at that point knew that the barn was the farm business of Debe Bell. That is enough to question his power to consent to the barn. He told the cop he was her Ex. That is yet another reason to question his power to consent.

Any good cop would have stopped there an ether got a warrant or got the actual owner of the barn to consent before going forward with opening the closed barn.

 

[debilorrah]

http://www.weedflemishgiantrabbitry.com/id481.html

This is a link that shows just how much rabbits mess over a period of time. Good information.

I understand this is not my thread. I would hate to see this closed because people cannot accept that we all have differing opinions. I know that I for one, want information. I don't really care who agrees or disagrees about this. I find the methods used to railraod her were far outside the line of legality. You don't have to agree, but please don't attack and try to shove your points home.

 

[MaryHammond]

Quote:
Actually your statement that the search was conducted legally is incorrect. Which is why there is discussion of a dismissal.

Again I reiterate, when Animal Control went to the Bell place he was convinced he was handling a case of too many rabbits in a tiny wooden shed in a residential zoned premises. The reality is far different.
Even though, as in many places throughout the U.S., urban residences have sprung up encircling farms, it remains grandfathered that Bell's farm is zoned A-2 agriculture with NO limits on rabbit numbers. Unfortunately, it is NOT unusual for ignorance of zoning areas to stimulate a reaction on the part of AC.

That is the first point...AC thought it was a case of a hoarder in a residence. The zoning commissioner investigated, visiting the property and stated that the shed was part of the barn, the property was A-2 zoned, and there was no overpopulation of animals.
The case should be dismissed on those points alone.

Second point- dead rabbits in freezer. In a residence in which it is zoned R1 slaughtering rabbits in most places is against the law. A-2 zoning such as Debe's allows for slaughter. The dead rabbits in the freezer are not the sign of inhumane conditions, but a sign of a functioning farm.

Third point- if AC raids a residence and runs off with two or three dogs, five dollars a day is a reasonable impound fee. Most county pounds are designed for the city pet population, not for farm intake. Anytime the county must take in enough animals from one residence to create a $24,000.00 a month impound fee, you can figure one of two things occurred: AC raided a hoarder in a house or they have inadvertently seized the livestock of a farm. Pounds are not set up to handle livestock and full herd issues. Therefore, HRS was called.

Fourth point- Debe was not allowed to photograph the seizure. For AC to prevent her from doing so is against the law.

So again, while I appreciate your outrage over the four dirty cages, and two dirty water bowls, I would like to ask you to think again about the "legality" of the ACs actions. AC was wrong on so many counts, it might be time for them to start looking for a new job right now.

 

[sommrluv]

I'm so glad I even took the time to carefully think out and word a post because I thought someone was actually interested in the facts as they were, and my opinion.


Really, really glad.

 

[mom2jedi]

Quote:
I'm sorry but the tone with which you are responding is not necessary. I just spent the last couple of hours listening to the radio show you posted a link for since I was not able to find transcripts for it. I was interested in your opinion which is why I asked.

Unless I missed it, at the time of the show she had not actually seen the photos in question and was merely defending herself based on descriptions of each photo. Therefor, to state that she admitted it was her barn is not exactly accurate.

What really is the issue and what is truly being discussed is the fact that LEO did this wrong. Not the condition of her barn, not her animals. They arrived on her property without a warrant yet implied that they had one. Strike one against the officials - they lied to gain access to an area that could not be seen from the road which would have given them probable cause to enter without a warrant.

Strike two - they denied her right to document what was happening on her property.

Strike three - she has never had a validated complaint against her which would have led to the immediate seizure of her livestock had she failed to comply with a warning.

Strike four - the anonymous tip was received 14 months after the fact. If that person was truly concerned for the welfare of her animals they would not have waited till the hotline was up and running so they could collect $2000.

Strike five - when the issue of zoning was brought up, the officer could have done his job and looked into her claim that she was grandfathered in and the new zoning law did not apply to her. They have laptops in their cruisers. The fact that he didn't and simply changed tactics instead of researching it means to me that they were not there as an unbiased source but one that had a preconceived idea as to what the goal was.

Rabbits are messy creatures when kept in cages. Plain and simple. In a colony situation which is their original habitat, the process of backing into the corner and pooping makes sense. It keeps the rest of the den clean and it naturally composts into the dirt.

As for using multiple exclamation points, not everyone has done that. Only a few posts here and there, most posters have been very civil and have simply stated facts.