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Rabbit Thread

So your litters would be half rex fur and half regular.

This is one of the most common misunderstandings when it comes to genetics. When you cross a rabbit that has one copy of a gene (in this case, the gene for the Rex coat) to a rabbit that has two copies of the same gene, each of the babies has a 100% chance of getting that gene from the parent with two copies, and a 50/50 chance of getting it from the parent with only one copy. That is not the same thing as saying that half of the babies will have the Rex coat, and half normal coats. It's like flipping a coin - if you flip 6 coins at the same time, you could get 3 "heads" and 3 "tails," but you might just as easily get 2 and 4, or 1 and 5, or even 6 heads or 6 tails, and all of these results would be perfectly normal, given that you only flipped that many. The same is true when it comes to litters - because the sample size is so small, you could get results that are far from an even split (even all Rex or all normal coats) and it's perfectly normal. If you could do the same cross enough times to get 1000 babies, you would probably get numbers that were close to 500 of each coat type, but in a sample as small as 1 litter, or even the entire lifetime production of a breeding pair, your results could be widely skewed.

But - and this is important - there is more to the Rex coat than just short hairs; there are things like density and texture. These are determined by other genes, which may or may not get passed on when the Rex gene gets inherited. With crossbreds, you might get short coats, but they might be fine-textured and thin and nothing like the thick, plushy, springy coat that one expects to feel when they handle a Rex rabbit.

When crossing to a (I'm assuming Holland Lop; "Lop" isn't a breed, just a description of what the ears do) you have a different issue. The ears on the Lop breeds go down because the rabbits' skulls are wide and because the ligaments at the bases of the ears aren't strong enough to hold them up. Outcrosses, particularly with something as small as the Holland, often wind up with what I call "Weeble ears" ("they wobble but they don't go down"). You can't very well call a rabbit with mostly upright ears like that a Lop; it's a small mixed breed. Now, whether you could sell that depends on the market in your area; around here, there are enough purebreds available you'd almost have to give them away.
charlie rabbits have some minor health issues sometimes

I don't know about you, but I consider missing most of the nerves that go to the muscles lining the digestive tract and megacolon to be a bit more than minor issues. Every Charlie is born like that; some die very young because their digestive systems are so dysfunctional while others live for years, but all are just about guaranteed to experience GI stasis episodes, no matter how careful their owners are.
 
@Bunnylady, obviously I can't completely predict the exact number of rabbits of what kinds in a litter. On average, half the kits will be rex. or perhaps in general, or about. That's implied in language of the conversation.

Also, the citations for charlie rabbits are limited and the most I've found that cites the actual prevalence of the condition in charlies is this;
https://www.vgr1.com/megacolon/
Which carries a statement from Dana Krempels, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer, Director of Undergraduate Studies, University of Miami Department of Biology and Houserabbit Adoption Rescue and Education Rabbit Rescue director. Below is her responce:
"Not all "charlies" have the congenital failure of their melanocyte neuron-precursor cells to properly migrate and innervate the gut. It's a polygenic condition, and also possibly influenced by in utero environment. In short, the actual developmental mechanism isn't fully understood. I would say the vast majority of "charlie" rabbits do NOT have the condition, though. It's not all that common. But it's awful when it does show up."
Edit: After much digging I also found this;
https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/RO-Spring-17-Megacolon.pdf
Which describes the condition as "rare with increased prevelance in spotted rabbits". As well as several papers that described charlie rabbits as having on average poorer growth rates but no actual percentage of how many rabbits showed lower growth rates and how severe each one was or what their livability was.
Nothing else I found had substantial enough citation/background to be admissible, not even the Medirabbit page which is exclusively anecdotally based.
 
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When crossing to a (I'm assuming Holland Lop; "Lop" isn't a breed, just a description of what the ears do) you have a different issue.
I merely said Lop, because I don't know what lop to breed her to. People around here sell Holland Lops and Mini Lops. One person does breed English Lops nearby but not sure if they're currently selling right now.
I also wish I knew which Lop she had in her because the lady I got her from didn't tell me.
 
Maybe you can contact the lady to find out. I agree that breeding to another lop could be problematic as you'd get what Bunnylady describes and what's around here called airplane ears. :p They stick out sideways but they don't fall correctly, like airplane wings. Very cute imo but some people find it unattractive.

If I were choosing what to breed to this rabbit, I would probably pick a solid red or harlequin mini rex. Given the mix you have, there'd be a good chance of getting rex furred babies and a good mix of broken/unbroken in bright colors all of which could be appealing and no charlies with their potential for health issues. Even bad rex fur has a nice texture to it and given that yours is half rex it could easily carry the genes to have nice rex fur.

But I would also make sure I had a plan lined up for the offspring. Obviously that's not a problem here - they end up with other breeders or in freezers and those lovely furs would make bags or some such. (We try to use as much of the animal as possible including tanning the hides.) But otherwise it might be wise to find homes for some of the kits in advance of the breeding, or at least make a plan for them that doesn't involve shelters or rescues.
Around here it's pretty easy to sell kits, even mixed breed, if you market them well. I'd learn about the market in your area a bit, see what's offered at what prices through what media (newspaper pet classifieds, craigslist both pets and farm and garden, ebay classifieds, hoobly, breeder listings, local fairs, shelters, etc.) and see if there's enough of a market by looking for few people offering rabbits at reasonable prices. So not $5 a kit for example (you'd loose money and it bodes poorly if other people can't sell rabbits below cost), at least $15+, and not so many the market is saturated, just a few in any given market on any given medium (if there are 20 craigslist ads for small breed bunnies in your immediate area, that's a lot. If there's 5 in the paper, that too is a lot. Etc. But if there's 20 ads for meat rabbits and no ads for smaller pet rabbits that might be OK. If there's a lot of small pet rabbits in local shelters consistently, maybe reconsider the plan, etc.). Then I'd make a choice about how many of what kinds of rabbits I'd want to produce and make a plan from there.... Including contingencies for unsold offspring.

Breeding is fun, it just requires good planning all around.
 
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If you want to wade through it, there are articles like this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3988019/

but I gotta warn you, the fog index is off the scale. Basically, it's a study on the gene behind congenital megacolon, using Checkered Giants as the subject animals. It's not an opinion piece (which most of what you can find on megacolon is), it's observations and data collected in laboratory conditions. Some veterinarians may still be debating whether megacolon actually exists as a condition, but they have the handicap of having to deal with a still-living animal from the outside in most cases. This was a lab study, so the subject animals were euthanized and necropsied, and every EnEn (Charlie) rabbit in this study was observed to have the expanded, deformed cecum and ascending colon associated with megacolon. These people weren't having to make educated guesses based on symptoms, they opened the rabbits up and looked . . . with a microscope, in many cases. A lot of the rabbits were young, and may not have developed any obvious symptoms, but the malformed digestive system was present in all of the EnEn animals, and only in them. In the scientific world, a 1-to-1 correlation is considered pretty good evidence that what you are looking at is real.:confused:So while some people may be of the opinion that the condition doesn't exist, or if it does, it is rare, in certain circles it's been accepted for years that Charlies are born with the structural deformities that are associated with megacolon, whether or not they show symptoms.:idunno My personal experience with Charlies is very limited; I avoid breeding them, and have only owned 3 or 4. With such a small sample group, I would be hesitant to put forth my observations as having any real weight, but I will say that they have borne out what I have heard for years; they all had the weird poop, and tended to develop GI stasis at the drop of a hat.

The reason I commented on the statement that half of the bunnies will be one, and half the other, is because a surprising number of people seem to expect the exact ratios described in classes on Mendelian inheritance. I have seen posts along the lines of "I bred these two rabbits together, and the litter was just born; since there aren't any peanuts in it , one or the other must not be a dwarf." (Well, no, you are wa-a-a-ay off base in making that assumption, based on that little evidence. If your breeders have the correct size and proportions to be dwarfs, they probably are; it's just that none of the babies in this particular litter lost this nasty genetic version of Russian Roulette.) I can't remember the thread, but just a few weeks ago on this forum, someone said something along the lines of " I thought half of the litter was supposed to be such-and-such, and I only got 1? What's wrong?" So I regularly find myself having to explain that "results may vary" in the real world, and you may need a large number for the predicted ratios to emerge. Sometimes small numbers may work out along predicted lines, but sometimes, even a more guarded statement like "some will be this way, and some that" may not turn out to be true.
 
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Hi! i recently saw that people are staring a new thread for rabbits. I have two rabbits of my own, a male Netherland dwarf and and female mini fluffy lop (yes that’s what they are called lol.). The Netherland dwarf is fixed and his behavior has significantly improved sense then. My two rabbits have a huge cage which they can run around in through their tunnels and everything. During the day we open up their door and they can run down their ramp into their outdoor area, which is the same size as my chicken run, which is pretty big too! My rabbits love this and do binkys all day around their pen. They snuggle together all day and are completely in love. With so much space, I am considering adopting another rabbit from a nearby shelter. Would this ruin my rabbits relationship?
 
Maybe you can contact the lady to find out. I agree that breeding to another lop could be problematic as you'd get what Bunnylady describes and what's around here called airplane ears. :p They stick out sideways but they don't fall correctly, like airplane wings. Very cute imo but some people find it unattractive.

If I were choosing what to breed to this rabbit, I would probably pick a solid red or harlequin mini rex. Given the mix you have, there'd be a good chance of getting rex furred babies and a good mix of broken/unbroken in bright colors all of which could be appealing and no charlies with their potential for health issues. Even bad rex fur has a nice texture to it and given that yours is half rex it could easily carry the genes to have nice rex fur.

But I would also make sure I had a plan lined up for the offspring. Obviously that's not a problem here - they end up with other breeders or in freezers and those lovely furs would make bags or some such. (We try to use as much of the animal as possible including tanning the hides.) But otherwise it might be wise to find homes for some of the kits in advance of the breeding, or at least make a plan for them that doesn't involve shelters or rescues.
Around here it's pretty easy to sell kits, even mixed breed, if you market them well. I'd learn about the market in your area a bit, see what's offered at what prices through what media (newspaper pet classifieds, craigslist both pets and farm and garden, ebay classifieds, hoobly, breeder listings, local fairs, shelters, etc.) and see if there's enough of a market by looking for few people offering rabbits at reasonable prices. So not $5 a kit for example (you'd loose money and it bodes poorly if other people can't sell rabbits below cost), at least $15+, and not so many the market is saturated, just a few in any given market on any given medium (if there are 20 craigslist ads for small breed bunnies in your immediate area, that's a lot. If there's 5 in the paper, that too is a lot. Etc. But if there's 20 ads for meat rabbits and no ads for smaller pet rabbits that might be OK. If there's a lot of small pet rabbits in local shelters consistently, maybe reconsider the plan, etc.). Then I'd make a choice about how many of what kinds of rabbits I'd want to produce and make a plan from there.... Including contingencies for unsold offspring.

Breeding is fun, it just requires good planning all around.
Around here, mixed pet rabbits sell for around $15-25 depending what is mixed. Meat rabbits sell for around $10-15
Also, if I did breed her and she had offspring I may turn here for advice because despite my older brother having had breeding rabbits before, he probably wouldn't help me as we don't get along due to him also making fun of me every chance he gets.
 
female mini fluffy lop (yes that’s what they are called lol.).

Could you perhaps mean an American Fuzzy Lop? https://aflrc.weebly.com/

It's hard to say whether your rabbits would accept another rabbit; so much depends on the personalities involved. The fact that they get along so well is encouraging; clearly neither is such a dominating personality that they simply won't tolerate any other rabbits (there are some like that, and their owners often get grief over how cruel it is to have an 'only bunny'). Some people manage to have several rabbits living in the same space quite happily, because even the highest on the pecking order is a fairly laid-back rabbit. The best scenario would have all of the rabbits going into the space at the same time; that way, nobunny feels like their territory is getting invaded and they need to defend it. Since you have two rabbits already in possession of the space, you need to handle introductions carefully. Do you have neutral territory that hasn't been claimed by any rabbit, where they can get to know each other? Perhaps you can alternate which rabbit(s) have use of a space, so they can get used to each other's scent without potentially hostile encounters? Of course, there is always the possibility that the new rabbit turns out to have the stronger personality, and it winds up being the aggressor rather than the victim.:oops:

But, I believe your specific question was whether introducing a third rabbit might mess up the love-fest that is going on between the two you currently have. Unfortunately, that is one of the possible outcomes. One of these two might decide it likes the new rabbit better, and bond with it, to the exclusion of the one it now cuddles with. Or, hostilities might break out, and spill over to such an extent that all rabbits wind up fighting all other rabbits, even those with whom they previously got along well. Obviously, what you are hoping for is that they would all become one bigger, happy family, and that could happen, but the other can't be ruled out.

You said the male is fixed, is the female also altered? Male-on-male aggression is well known, but I've seen females do some horrible things to each other, too. Once again, the best-case scenario would have all of the animals spayed/neutered before introductions begin, to get the hormones out of the picture. There are no absolutes one way or the other with this sort of thing, though; if you get it to work out, I hope you'll tell us how you did it!
 
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I do agree that charlies present consistently with unusual digestive tracts. However, the pretension of symptoms is what matters most I think, since a rabbit that has a different digestive tract but no substantial negative symptoms is a non issue. It's not quite like, say, bobtail in dogs which is homozygous lethal and very sad because many puppies are born in very bad shape but alive with it and you don't even get more bobtails on average.

My personal experience has been that I try not to breed for charlies but occasionally I've made choices where I've gotten a few and every one of them has had not unusual growth rates (though smaller on average, kind of like a normal runt) and never presented with any stasis symptoms. But I also feed my rabbits differently than many keepers who raise rabbits on any scale and I give my rabbits regular unlimited supply of high quality hay and limit pellets which could have made a dramatic difference. The studies I've read say that there's no one diet that actually solves the issues when they present, but hay-based diets are supposed to lower the incidence of GI issues in healthy rabbits.

Having said that, I do try to avoid breeding charlies because I like big healthy bunnies. But basically it doesn't mean every charlie is a bag of pain and death, their symptoms can range from nearly non existent to really severe, and it's just unavoidable in some breeds... Like English Spots, Checkered Giants and Rhinelanders all obvs have no solid coated options and rely on the high white coloring so breeding those breeds means dealing with a lot of charlies. Which is a bit of a shame, but it is what it is and I guess I just don't see it as extreme. If it is the information I can find on it doesn't say so.

Like you said, the fog index is off the scale for it. I have waded through a bunch of those already actually trying to find information on long term studies of health/quality of life/percentages of severe symptoms in charlie rabbits and I just can't find any. I do wish there were more solid information out there for rabbit keepers on the subject since it seems so intensely relevant to so many breeds.
 
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Could you perhaps mean an American Fuzzy Lop? https://aflrc.weebly.com/

It's hard to say whether your rabbits would accept another rabbit; so much depends on the personalities involved. The fact that they get along so well is encouraging; clearly neither is such a dominating personality that they simply won't tolerate any other rabbits (there are some like that, and their owners often get grief over how cruel it is to have an 'only bunny'). Some people manage to have several rabbits living in the same space quite happily, because even the highest on the pecking order is a fairly laid-back rabbit. The best scenario would have all of the rabbits going into the space at the same time; that way, nobunny feels like their territory is getting invaded and they need to defend it. Since you have two rabbits already in possession of the space, you need to handle introductions carefully. Do you have neutral territory that hasn't been claimed by any rabbit, where they can get to know each other? Perhaps you can alternate which rabbit(s) have use of a space, so they can get used to each other's scent without potentially hostile encounters? Of course, there is always the possibility that the new rabbit turns out to have the stronger personality, and it winds up being the aggressor rather than the victim.:oops:

But, I believe your specific question was whether introducing a third rabbit might mess up the love-fest that is going on between the two you currently have. Unfortunately, that is one of the possible outcomes. One of these two might decide it likes the new rabbit better, and bond with it, to the exclusion of the one it now cuddles with. Or, hostilities might break out, and spill over to such an extent that all rabbits wind up fighting all other rabbits, even those with whom they previously got along well. Obviously, what you are hoping for is that they would all become one bigger, happy family, and that could happen, but the other can't be ruled out.

You said the male is fixed, is the female also altered? Male-on-male aggression is well known, but I've seen females do some horrible things to each other, too. Once again, the best-case scenario would have all of the animals spayed/neutered before introductions begin, to get the hormones out of the picture. There are no absolutes one way or the other with this sort of thing, though; if you get it to work out, I hope you'll tell us how you did it!
Thank you for answering!! The female is not altered, but is under a year old so we haven’t decided if we will or not. I’ve heard it is a very good idea to do though. The female is a little more territorial than the male so I will introduce them in neutral space like you said if I proceed to adopt another rabbit. Hope all works out!
 

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