Rabbit Thread

[Bunnylady]

English Spots, Checkered Giants and Rhinelanders all obvs have no solid coated options and rely on the high white coloring so breeding those breeds means dealing with a lot of charlies.

Ummm . . . . Not necessarily. Just because you can't show 'em, doesn't mean you can't find 'em. One of the possible outcomes when breeding animals heterozygous for the spotting gene is solid, and there are solid-colored, pedigreed English Spots, Checkered Giants, and Rhinelanders born in nearly every litter (I remember a Rhinelander breeder bringing one to a show to sell to another breeder, and my fellow Harlequin breeder joked that they should put a number in its ear and enter it as a Harlequin). You can't register an animal that has a DQ, and obviously, a lack of markings on an animal of a marked breed is a DQ, but that doesn't mean that an animal can't be an absolutely dynamite representative of its breed in every way other than its lack of spots. Just as people who hate the thought of peanuts can avoid them and still breed showable dwarfs by breeding one to classy but unshowable false dwarfs, the breeder who loves one of these marked breeds but wants to avoid Charlies can breed spotted to unspotted if they want to [and since the subject of ratios has come up on previous posts, for show purposes, the odds are the same: heterozygous (Enen) to heterozygous (Enen) yields 25% solid (enen), 50% Broken (Enen), 25%Charlie (EnEn);
heterozygous (Enen) to homozygous for solid (enen) yields 50% Broken (Enen) and 50% solid.

Solids aren't showable, but nor are Charlies, so either way, only the approximately half of the offspring that are heterozygous (Enen) even have the potential to be showable - and anyone who has ever worked with a marked breed will tell you that the percentage of actually show-worthy offspring is much, much less. ] I remember seeing a post from someone who was working on Blue in the English Spot, proudly introducing their new herd buck - and he was a solid. So, no Charlies, no rabbits that either are unthrifty as youngsters, or may develop those issues later in life (at least, not for that reason).

 

[AltonaAcres]

Such interesting discussion! I am trying to decide if it's worth it to breed together two brokens.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

My understanding is a large number of those breeds have genetic charlies as showable since they have so little color on them, ideally, that sometimes good coat representations are charlies. Genetically being charlie doesn't mean you're actually under the 10% for markings required for show, that varies based on a lot more genes that we can't control as well and a genetic charlie rabbit can meet the 10% threshold... If they even have that for that threshold for lightly marked breeds? (I don't show them so I don't know the specific rules for them if there are any.)

And yeah, you do get solids. But as you say, they are DQ animals and you have no idea if the pattern they carry is good. You can attempt to avoid charlies of course, but it's much harder in a breed where the representations of the animals are supposed to be marked. They're also much less marketable unmarked. Not that they're worse animals, but if I were looking for a checkered giant, say, even as a pet I wouldn't want to pursue a solid rabbit since I'd be interested in it for the unique look and would be disappointed to get a solid.

Of course you CAN avoid them. It's just difficult, much like with peanuts and dwarf rabbits. I just don't think breeding out some charlies is such a big deal. As you also describe, I find 'unthrifty' to be the best description for them and that's hardly the end of the world.

If we had more solid data about what percentage of charlie rabbits had severe symptoms and it was a high percentage I might decide otherwise. Without solid data I can only decide what to do based on my own experiences which are that charlies aren't a huge deal but probably worth avoiding if you don't have a reason to breed them.

@AltonaAcres, personally I don't like unthrifty rabbits and I know the megacolon CAN be severe sometimes, so I choose to avoid them unless I have a strong reason to try a specific breeding. For example, right now I'm working on a project for tricolor rex, and I have a half rex harlequin I am going to be breeding to a red broken rex in hopes of getting some broken harlequin rex to work on (tricolor). If the harlequin half rex was also broken I'd probably breed it to the broken red anyhow, simply because it's all that I have available and I could still get what I'm hoping to out of it. But if I am breeding for meat, furs, or have the option to make a pairing that meets my goals that doesn't result in charlies I do that instead... I value livability and growth in my rabbits a lot, and I worry the megacolon can be a real problem if it compounds with something else. Probably not as much of an issue if you were breeding, say, house rabbits. But mine live in hutches outdoors and in my unheated garage.
Basically - WHY breed a potential charlie pairing if you have the option not to and no reason/need to do so? Probably not a huge deal if you have a reason to do it, but if you don't, why risk it?

 

[cluckmecoop7]

I LOVE rabbits so I thought I'd join this thread. Even though I don't own one at the moment, I love to visit my local shelter once in a while and see the dogs/cats/rabbits - rodents.

 

[Bunnylady]

that sometimes good coat representations are charlies

In the 3 breeds mentioned (Checkered Giant, Rhinelander, and English Spot) the breed standards go into great detail describing the nose marking (butterfly), the body markings (unbroken stripe down the spine and side spots), etc. It's not so much about how much color, it's precisely where it's found that makes or breaks an entry with one of these beasts. Charlies seldom have full butterflies, their spinal markings are often reduced to a broken line of spots, their side markings are frequently entirely absent, and they often lack cheek spots. Most of those are severe faults, some are DQ's; a showable Charlie would be a rare bird.

Much to the frustration of old and new breeders alike, show winners don't necessarily produce show winners, and this is especially true of the marked breeds. Two grand champions can produce nothing but junk (well, they can be healthy and beautiful, but may all have one or two issues that keep them off the show table). Though you may not be able to see a pattern on a solid-colored rabbit, you can look at its relatives to see what the potential of the bloodline is; the rest is sheer luck, just as it is with one that is wearing spots you can see.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Hmm, the rabbit shown in the medirabbit page on megacolon has a full butterfly, stripe and cheek spots, but no side spots. I've seen a lot of charlies that look about like that so I feel like it can't be all that rare but, again, no actual statistics to back it up. It sounds like we've just had different experiences with the mutation.

I'm aware that show rabbits are fickle to breed for. Same is true of high quality meat rabbits. It didn't take more than a couple generations when I started for me to find out that the offspring aren't going to come out as nice as the parents unless you're lucky.

 

[CoturnixComplex]

I love all the detailed breeding talk. I soak up about 1/4 of what y'all say at a time but it's fascinating. Breeding for show is....really complicated! I appreciate everyone weighing in with their expertise.

I have a few crosses planned that might produce charlies, but those ones I will just eat. Only well-blanketed brokens for me.

I have kind of a random hodgepodge collection. I have a blue, rex-coated, mandolin shaped meat mutt project planned but am also getting sucked into purebred Rex and Flemish.

Hank, my dilute tricolor rex, has an excess of charm.


His sister Stella is even nicer but doesn't like posing for pictures as much.


Susie (broken black half rex half Flemish) and her daughter Cali (1/4 rex, 1/4 flemmie, 1/4 NZ, 1/4 CA) are my big 10 and 12 lb girls. I love them but they have no personality compared to my youngsters and really want nothing to do with me.


And my baby, Mr. Blue Buns! He is a purebred pedigreed Flemish and will get to about 15 lbs (currently hovering around 9-10 lbs at 6 months). He is somehow simultaneously the most people-oriented and the most opinionated rabbit I have. He is a total lap bunny but heaven help you if you reach into his cage with latex gloves, although he likes bare hands fine. I've no idea how he would do yet (he certainly has his flaws), but he would be headed to the ARBA convention if it weren't a cooped show (too much disease risk for me).

 

[Bunnylady]

Hmm, the rabbit shown in the medirabbit page on megacolon has a full butterfly, stripe and cheek spots, but no side spots.

Just to clarify, a "full butterfly" covers the upper lips and whisker pads, and has a nose fork (the body of the butterfly) that goes up the bridge of the nose approximately half an inch beyond the wings. "Zippy" does not have a full butterfly. His nose marking only covers about half of the whisker pads, has a white spot/streak in it (a DQ), and there is white on his upper lip below the nose marking (a DQ). His spinal marking appears to stop well short of his tail (a DQ). He has no side/flank markings on one side (a DQ) and no body markings at all on the other (a DQ). As I said, the devil is in the details with marked breeds; it's hard enough to get a showable Enen animal, a showable Charlie would be rare indeed.

(Please excuse my slow response; dealing with the physical effects of a second hurricane in a year, plus the emotional baggage of having just buried my mother, doesn't leave me a lot of time).

@CoturnixComplex Your comments about your rabbits' personalities made me smile. Funny, isn't it, how some make the effort and totally wrap you around their little paws, while others are "just rabbits?"

 

[Celticdragonfly]

Been thinking for a while about adding rabbits to our menagerie. (3 cats inside, 3 pullets outside in a coop-and-run combo)

Rabbits would need to live outside - I have a spouse inside already dealing with cat allergies, and we have a LOT of electronics in the house, so a bunny inside would be bad. I'm thinking hutch, the type with a small run, and then they get free range time along with the chickens.

Pros? Cons? Suggestions? I figure I don't want any of the really fluffy breeds, what with living outside in Texas. Don't know if I should get one or if they need company and get 2-3. Don't know how many a commercial hutch can reasonably accommodate - I know the numbers on chicken coops are vastly overrated. Don't know if I should try to adopt, or if they'll insist only indoors and I should just get one from Atwoods or something.

 

[Skye'sDucks]

I can't saw how many a commercial hutch can actually hold, either, but I know our home-made hutch is reasonably roomy. I'd say even if the hutch is on the smaller side, say for 2 or 3, but they get enough run-around time in either the run or outside it'd be okay. Then again, if you're ever in a situation where they can't get out a lot, making sure they have enough space in their hutch might be a good idea.

If they're just pets and not for showing or breeding, I'd honestly go rescue (but that's my personal opinion), but I agree that it seems like a lot of shelters insist on indoor housing. There was a place in town where I am that I got my one rescue from; never had a problem with housing requirements. I guess it's just finding the right place.

I think one rabbit would do fine, although there could be special cases where it might get lonely. I know when one of my rabbits died, I watched his buddy for a while to make sure he didn't get lonely, but he never did. The only cons to getting two is you have to bond them, or they could kill each other. I don't know if you already know this. My two current rabbits bonded within a few weeks, really fast actually. But some rabbits take longer.