Raising up Pyrenees pups. UPDATE P7

[TDM]

Quote:
My Great Pyrenees has learned to be food aggressive when around chickens, especially when it is something that she really likes to eat such as leftovers. She mock attacks them. I guess if she didn't, then she wouldn't be able to enjoy her meal because the chickens will try to steal all her food.

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

TDM,

Trust me, my dogs only put up with the chickens. But, they understand that they are not dogs and have protected status her. I sometimes see a lip curl or a snarl when the chickens are pushy. But, if a chicken really wants some thing, I've seen the dog just give up, leave it for the bird and give me that "but, dad" look

Our puppies are pretty good.

Jim

 

[r4eboxer]

Thought I'd give an update due to an "OH NO" moment.
Saturday it was cold here in WV, it was the coldest day we have had this winter and everything was frozen. Well, months ago DH built the coop and put the door on backwards (as in swinging into the coop) We also put the waterer in the coop on Friday because I kept the chickens in and didn't let them out. The goat had gotten loose and I had to use the pups space for the goat. Long long story so I will not got into it.

I don't keep water in the run and did not know the waterer was spilling out all over the floor (on Friday) and it froze the door shut to the coop. DH used a crow bar to get the door open but there was so much ice the door would not shut. Saturday was our anniversary and we were going out, but first we had to pick up our oldest son from basketball practice. The chickens had gone into the coop and were roosting so I shut the pups up in the coop and pulled the door shut to the coop as far as I could get it. The goat was in the pups space so I had to put them up while I ran out to get my ds.
'D' and I were going to bring our son home and then we were going to go out. Well, DS wanted to go out to eat with us so we just left from practice and went to BW3's. I put my order in and asked for a Long Island with my ribs and wings. We watched the Giants beat Green Bay (darn it I had GB in the super bowl) Anyway my one Long Island turned into 3. Hence the reason I forgot to tell DH that he needed to go chisel ice away so we could shut the door.

I usually go out to the coop well before sunup. This weekend I didn't get there until around 9 a.m. Actually it was DH who went to the coop, he walks into the kitchen holding my hen Lucille, she looked horrible. She was missing feathers and was in shock but had no blood or other signs of trauma. EEEKKK I then remembered that I had left the door about a third of the way open and the pups were in the run. DH went out to check the other girls and all were fine. I went outside to help with chores and Sequoia was very sheepish. She did not run to me and get all excited. Instead she slowly crawled to me and sat down in front of me with her ears pulled back and head down with sad puppy dog eyes. I know she knew she did wrong, I'm not sure if Genevieve was in on the act, but if so she had no remorse.

Lucille was completely fine after a few hours and even laid an egg the next morning. She doesn't look as bad as she did on Sunday. The pups must have rolled her around in the snow because her feathers were all wet. There is just one spot on her back where the feathers are missing. I do have her separated from the other hens because I don't want them pecking her until she has time to completely recover. Besides she has been getting some nice rations of meal worms and she is plenty happy.

I felt completely terrible on Sunday morning. Today I am a little impressed with the pups, they had all the chickens in a confined area and even though they pulled out some feathers in an attempt to get Lucille to play with them, they did not harm her. She doesn't have a scratch on her. My other dog (a Lhasa Apso) had the chickens in 5 acres and he chased and killed 3 of them in the early fall. I wish I could know at what point the pups realized they should not be chasing the chickens and gave up. The pups had access to all of them for at least 2 hours.

If any of you feel the need to chastise me go ahead, I've already done it all in my head myself, I have learned more than one lesson here. The first one is goats can get out of all kinds of fencing and you really need a good strong fence for them. The other lessons; well they are self evident.

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

r4eboxer,

Please note, it's well established that dogs do not understand guilt like you or I. Sequoia was not acting guilty but, instead, probably picked up on your mood and your husband's reaction to finding the bird in that state. Trust me, they don't get it.

Our Pyr has done something similar. My guess for why the bird was wet is not snow but, Pyr slime. We once found that our Pyr, Fluffy, had cornered a chicken and was licking her back. The bird was soaked but, unharmed. Your pups may have done the same. Fluffy grew out of this behavior. Your pups will too.

Jim

 

[Mzyla]

That was a good reading! Everyone have a good point.
Why no more posts for a week time?

I admire the Original Poster for your strong will and hard work.
And mostly I admire you for your clearly defined opinion regarding the purpose of LGD

I'm of the same opinion; we are not in a dog show business. Even pedigree dogs have their faults.
You did good decision and wish you all the luck and may all you plans and wishes come through!

If you find a moment, please keep us update it on a progress.

P.S.
I started my dogs from puppy-hood as well. I was doing pretty much the same what you are doing.
In February my Pyr will be 1 year old and he is all that I was wishing for!

Truth of the matter is, they not coming to me on a flip of a dime. Many times they do come and sometimes not (especially when they busy in a woods sniffing predators)
Then I need to use a trick; holding chicken egg or cat food can in my hand and saying; come here sweety, mommy have eggee for you....
They running to me then.

This was in October



This was December 2011



This is January 2012 --------- the time is sure running fast!!

 

[r4eboxer]

Hello Mzyla,


You have gorgeous dogs, I am glad to hear your pups are doing well with guarding. I have taken about 5 steps back this week with my dogs sadly. I lost a cockerel on Sunday to the pups. I had the pullets and the roo in a pen outside with the ducks to give them some outside time (my grow out pen is not finished yet) The roo was a 10 weeks old and an Easter Egger, he flew up and out of the pen and my dogs were free running around the yard. Well, I was inside and they killed the roo. I am learning that EE'rs in general "fly the coop" I have an EE hen and every day she flies up and over the 5' fence into the yard. I figure she is going to meet the same fate if she doesn't stop. I have clipped her wings but it doesn't deter her.

I really am not upset about losing the roo. It was a mistake to get an EE roo anyway as I don't plan to breed them and was kicking myself for getting him in the first place. I am sorry that my pups killed him though. I know they are young but was hoping to get through this with them without a loss.

In other Pyr news I am having limited success with getting them to not jump up. They jump on my boys more than they jump on me right now. I have been successful getting them to stay off me and sit to be loved on but my 16 and 11 year old sons are not giving them the stay down command enough. I have talked to my sons and hopefully they will make them stop jumping up. The pups get so excited they want all the attention. If I am lovin' on one of the pups the other will jump at me to get some lovin too. If they are seperate they will sit down and wait for me to pet and praise them. If I was going to make any suggestions to anyone thinking of getting more than one LGD it would be to get them one at a time. Train the first one and then add another pup later. It has not really been that big of a challenge with both of them other than the jumping up part. I hate that! There have been times I have gone out to shut the coop up in my office work clothes or 'going out clothes' and the pups jump on me. Cripes then I have to go change. I don't know how many times I have had to wash my knit off white UGG boots because they have stepped on them. You'd think I'd learn not to wear them out to the yard.

I will take some photos soon; the girls have grown quite a bit since I posted a pic last. I am still feeding Innova but I did give them both a deer roast the other day. They really loved it! I can't wait until I have enough in the freezer to start raw feeding. I think I am going to put a quota on DH and all my DS next hunting season. Heck I might just have to hunt myself, this year they only got one between all 4 of them.

I really hope the pups end up being good poultry guardians. Right now they guard the coop at night and it is working out well, no other predator losses, but I am wondering if I will ever be able to free range my poultry. I have not lost all hope but I constantly have to yell at them not to chase the geese, rabbits and the occasional EE escape artist. I know Jim you said you had the same problem when yours was a pup. I just hope I get the same results.

That was a good reading! Everyone have a good point.
Why no more posts for a week time?

I admire the Original Poster for your strong will and hard work.
And mostly I admire you for your clearly defined opinion regarding the purpose of LGD

I'm of the same opinion; we are not in a dog show business. Even pedigree dogs have their faults.
You did good decision and wish you all the luck and may all you plans and wishes come through!

If you find a moment, please keep us update it on a progress.

P.S.
I started my dogs from puppy-hood as well. I was doing pretty much the same what you are doing.
In February my Pyr will be 1 year old and he is all that I was wishing for!

Truth of the matter is, they not coming to me on a flip of a dime. Many times they do come and sometimes not (especially when they busy in a woods sniffing predators)
Then I need to use a trick; holding chicken egg or cat food can in my hand and saying; come here sweety, mommy have eggee for you....
They running to me then.

This was in October



This was December 2011



This is January 2012 --------- the time is sure running fast!!

 

[bj taylor]

just interjecting here. i have german shepherds, not great pyrenees. i spent more money than was comfortable in my quest to get quality dogs. i researched the breeders (diff breeder for the two). german shepherds are notorious for hip problems. the parents of both were ofa excellent, and supposedly well socialized. my male (now 2y/o) is a spectacular dog in every way. the female (now 1 y/o) is a physical and mental wreck. her temperment is fragile (despite giving her an utterly stable and positive environment) & her structure is terrible (i fear for her quality and longevity of life). so my experience in investing in quality dogs for livestock guarding still comes with a risk.

 

[Mzyla]

I’m distressed to hear that the pups killed your rooster. So sorry.
That’s not a good sign….Doesn’t matter if they are still puppies…
I’m almost afraid to say it; but once they did it, it most likely means that they are having this bad gene; killer instinct. That one will be hard to get rid of.

I won’t suggest anything, I can only relate to what happened in my household:
Pyr and Karakachan never touched a chicken. They eating from the same bowl sometimes… No trouble there.

However, when we adopted a Cocker spaniel, the first thing she did, was chasing chickens.
I’m the soft one and just kept on screaming; no….no!!!
My DH is the hard one and he won’t play; he grabbed a tree branch and whip the dog couple of times.
The dog wined…stopped for a while. Next day she attempted to chase them again. Husband whipped the dog again. From that moment on, she never chased them!

In fact, when we have baby chicks many years in a row, this dog was like a second mommy, sitting next to momma chicken and just watching them with loving eye.
She was with us 15 years.

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

4reboxer,

I'm sorry to hear that the pups are not reliable yet. The problem is they are still pups and, obviously, can't be trusted 100%. And, then there's that "losing their mind phase". I swear your Pyr puppy lost her marbles at around 1 yr old; she would not listen at all. Goose chasing and fence jumping were our big problems. But, it all worked out in the end.

There was a recent discussion on the Other Animals section about dogs jumping up and how to stop it. There are various ways to stop it, most have to do with not rewarding the behavior with attention.

I can imagine that training two at the same time is a challenge. You might want to separate them for some one on one training for obedience and chicken training. I think once they are older, having the two dogs will be good. I like having a little pack of dogs so that they can keep each other company and to each other in line.

Jim

 

[FCLady]

I'm new to BYC but when I found your post I read it clear through, it brought back SOOO many memories of our Great Pyr - Moa. We bought her at 13 months old, still a pup but VERY large! You should go to http://www.greatpyr.com/ to learn about the dogs you have. They give great insight to the the Pyr's nature and the best way to "train" them.

IMO you need to establish who is alpha dog very soon. I learned some tricks off the pyr site, like when Moa was chasing my drake and stepping on him trying to get him to fly. I was hysterical to say the least - my only drake!! I got her by the collar and made her lay down until I was ready to let her up. I stepped on her collar to keep her in the "down" position, and really chewed her out!! I kept her down until I felt better. Even tho she looked at me with those great... big... dark... eyes... She doesn't chase the ducks anymore to make them fly. She is now almost 2-1/2 years old full grown and 106 pounds.

I agree that the chicken wasn't wet from snow - it was pyr slobber. Moa used to do that as well. Never hurt them, just licked them and loved on them.

Pyr are by nature wanting to protect, they just need to learn who and what belongs and what doesn't. They were used to guard sheep without human intervention. So when she has to deal with humans, she has to learn where they belong too. Make sure YOU are on top - alpha dog. I remember one day when she was acting up I put her in the empty chicken coop for her "time out" away from the other animals. It took an HOUR before she let ME out of the coop. No aggression towards me or anything. She didn't want to be alone and she didn't want to be punished either. She just sat her 106 pound butt in front of the door and I couldn't push, pull or outsmart her to get myself out of the coop. Just like a kid, if I'd have let her have her way, I'd be 2nd dog, not top dog. An hour later she gave in and I got out and she stayed in.

We spent MANY hours walking the perimeter of the fence inside and out. I ALWAYS went through gates first, she always followed me. etc etc. If she pushed me out of the way to get through the gate, we'd stop and go back through the gate again and again until she let me go first. You get the idea.

Just the other day my DH watched Moa watch the ground, and take one big swoop in the dirt - she caught and swallowed whole, a ground squirrel. Moa has 1-1/2 acres of fenced pasture to play in; she lives there with 200 chickens, 11 ducks, 2 rabbits and 3 sheep. There are no longer any groundhogs, skunks, possum, squirrels, deer, coyotes, or woodpeckers in that pasture - just the critters that belong. Okay, I did see one mouse a couple of weeks ago.

Don't give up on your pyrs just keep working and working with them. When they finally figure it out. They are THE BEST. You can get ideas on the web site about keeping them from jumping up. Believe me you don't want a dog that big jumping up on you! Moa gives you "the paw" when she likes you or wants to play, everyone that I know who has a pyr their dog does that.

Fencing is a BIG issue. You will need a good fence to keep them in. They are, after all, following their instincts and expanding their territory so they can protect their "flock". If Moa gets out of the fence, she walks into town. She doesn't run, just walks about 6 feet in front of you, far enough you can't even think about catching her. When she's done looking around, she'll stop and lay down in your path and let you grab her by the collar and lead her home. FRUSTRATING to say the least, but that tells us she needs more exercise at home and we start playing the pyr version of fetch or something like that.

Pyrs aren't like any other dog. Learn all you can about THE BREED and how to deal with that, it'll be easier on both of you!!