red jungle fowl....

[centrarchid]

Quote:
I started with five red jungle fowl, 2 males and 3 females. Both males got taken out during early winter but females all doing fine. They do not seem to be as equiped to deal with predators as my games. I would like to switch to grey jungle fowl as hybridization rate / risk with games should be lower.

Who is the guy with the free-range jungle fowl?

 

[philter4]

Quote:
I started with five red jungle fowl, 2 males and 3 females. Both males got taken out during early winter but females all doing fine. They do not seem to be as equiped to deal with predators as my games. I would like to switch to grey jungle fowl as hybridization rate / risk with games should be lower.

The reason it should be less of a risk for your red jungle fowl and game birds to inbreed is domestic chickens, including game birds, and red jungle fowl are the same species of bird (Gallus gallus) so technically it isn't a hybrid. Grey jungle fowl are a seperate species, Gallus sonneratii. But be careful about thinking the hybridization rate will be lower, grey jungle fowl will breed with reds in the wild where the two ranges overlap so in your flock they will do the same if they get the chance. Grey and red jungle fowl use different visual and auditory signals to mate, but if given time they will learn the others habits and hybridize, these hybrids are even more successful at breeding because they will breed with greys, reds, and other hybrids. In captivity the domestic chickens have all but been bred out of a mating ritual and the rooster's waltzing, tidbitting and strutting are so reduced that the rate of hybridization is higher then in the wild so you may not get a lower rate of mixing, and not only that the resulting chicks are now true hybrids between different species of bird.

Just a sidebar, there is some recent evidence that domestic chickens do have some grey jungle fowl mixed in their DNA, but most geneticists think they are red jungle fowl that have been manipulated by humans and the DNA is similar to grey jungle fowl because of it's close relationship with a red jungle fowl, they are considered sister species because of how closely the two species are related.

 

[centrarchid]

Philter4,
For most part I think we are in agreement.
My use of term hybrid need not be at species level, sub-species and breed also included.

I do not recognize domestic chickens as being a distinct species or purely nested within the red jungle fowl because of the grey jungle fowl introgression you mentioned. It is a hybrid swarm that can readily be backcrossed into on of its progenitor species.

I suspect the grey jungle fowl will be the one that blocks at least partially the hybridization with my games. I will facilitate interspecific mating barriers by enabling ranges / territories that do not overlap. This system already in place with free-ranging subflocks where all parentage coming from within a subflock.

If hybrids detected, then they will be destroyed. F1 hybrid between grey and my games should be much easier to detect than if hybrid between game and red jungle fowl.

 

[philter4]

Centrarchid,
I am sort of funny about the scientific terms only because of my preference for wild type birds. I was only concerned with your statement as to trusting they would be less likely to breed with a chicken, but it seems you have an excellent understanding and the room to keep this down to a minimum of possibility. To be honest I don't have any real problem with hybrids in any chicken breed, weather a grey is indeed part of the genetics of what we call a chicken isn't important to me, neither do I have a problem with crossing chicken breeds, again if that is the type of flock a person decides to raise that is his or her own choice. My choice is to raise genetically pure wild types of birds and I keep all of my closely related species apart, again this is my choice and not a hard or fast rule for me.

One thing I keep forgetting to mention, I love your avatar but why did you choose a squirrel fish instead of any of the panfish that gives you your user name? I am guessing you are a fisherman because these are not very good aquarium fish for the most part, unless you like the dwarf species like banded, dollar and spotted sunfish.

 

[centrarchid]

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Hybrids, their generation and selection of their progeny is what I do for a living.

I am a professor of aquaculture with research concentration on sunfishes, especially bluegill. Used to work with black basses (largemouth, spotted and smallmouth). My students and I have played with the smaller, prettier species on side. With the exception of the black basses, crappies and fliers; sunfishes are pretty easy to keep and breed in aquaria. We do it routinely. Seldom have time to fish. When I do, preference is to get into water with mask and snorkle to see things up close.

Avatar repressents ongoing evolution.

 

[philter4]

Quote:
Very cool job, I collect animals for a living. I do mostly fish and reptiles, with deep water marine fish being the bulk of my business. I have supplied scientific research as well as private, public zoo and aquarium specimens. We use mixed gases to dive these depths safely. I have kept and bred some of the medium sized species such as red breasted and long eared but normally people don't give them the space they need to keep them properly, that is if they even know about them.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread so back to birds.

 

[pheasant24]

haha! i feel a lil lost...haha!

 

[centrarchid]

Philter4,

You mentioned at one point grey jungle fowl rooster would give food items to hen on nest. How far will he carry such an item? If supplied with more than he can carry, will he take multiple trips. My games do not do it but free ranging male with only a single hen seems to remain near feeding station and when hen comes off nest to forage he seems to call her to feeding station. Chick from previous brood may have also tidbitted to mother indicating a food item. Very odd for chick to point out food for parent. Need to see again otherwise I may have been smoking something.

 

[GoatMilker20]

I Fish For A Lot Of Bluegill For Fryin They Are Delicous! I Do Wish They Got Bigger Tho And I Would Not Have To Catch So Many!

I Seen A Amhurtst And Golden Pheas. Mix Once, Pretty But We Should Not Keep Hybrids Unless They Are For Meat Like Mule Ducks.

Chris

 

[jabowery]

Quote:
I have an isolated acreage in SW Iowa on which I free range heritage breeds successfully with dogs protecting the chickens. Zero chance of interbreeding with domesticates.

I'm looking to replace all of my flock with red junglefowl -- pure wild breed only.

I want to free range them and modify the acreage to suit their nesting needs during the warm months. Purebreed is what I want because I want natural nesting behavior. If they can tolerate being cooped up during winter, I can keep them warm enough.

I've been unable to find a source of the pure wild type let alone a community of breeders who are trying to leverage their natural nesting behavior through a combination of free ranging and habitat management.

Its kind of frustrating really. This is a natural breed endangered by interbreeding with domesticated chickens and what a lot of free rangers want is robust natural behavior. There is absolutely no reason for this line to be endangered by domestication.