Red Laced Cornish X and project talk (pics p. 8)

[AletaG]

White Laced Red is dominate, whereas white is recessive. Meaning, WLR will not produce white chicks, although I have a couple that I believe carry both kinds of white-- and they are about 85% white with some red bleed.
Throwback whites are in high demand.
Was unaware of this
Doubtful you'll find anyone wanting to sell you whites. They don't exactly sell to people wanting to 'preserve' them.
Interesting. Why not? What do they expect you to do with them? Eat them? Maybe we don't mean the same thing? Cornish are listed by ALBC as a heritage breed needing care/preservation... that's part of my interest.
It's also doubtful you'll ever find anyone with whites- crossing them up-- unless they are using some dark hens under their white cocks to improve on type. I will never put a WLR under a white-- far too complicated color to breed away from. Would rather use my darks or blues to improve on the whites.
I have a lot to learn about genetics in fowl (my background is more general and botanically based). Good to know about using the darks/blues. I have figured out at this point that White is a difficult color to come by. Is the quality a bit of a mess right now? As in, even from a good breeder, will need a lot of time (say 20years), money (to burn) and patience to help bring them to healthy, happy SOP?
I have had ONE person PM me offering to help me obtain a trio... sent a list of questions... haven't heard back yet. Is there a person I should be directing my inquiries too of good reputation on BYC? I'm persistent. It might take a year or two to find the right people, but that's OK. Gotta start somewhere! Thanks so much!

 

[kfacres]

All white Cornish are kept to breed. It's quite rare to get throwback whites, and every person under the sun wants them.

Cornish people don't care that they are listed on any list. They are a tight knit group, and almost all the time could care less about expanding the breed.

Color and SOP are not the problem. The problem is a lack of numbers, and mainly a lack of desire to spread the breed to more people, especially whites. Whites are too valueable of an asset to the poultry industry, and far too many bridges have been burned.

Avoid SteveH or Cedarknob on here. Both were his usernames at one point or another. Although, I haven't seen him with either username on here in a while-- I'm sure he's either got a new identity, or is residing in a loony house by now. The guy is nuts, avoid at all costs.

 

[AletaG]

All white Cornish are kept to breed. It's quite rare to get throwback whites, and every person under the sun wants them.
Cornish people don't care that they are listed on any list. They are a tight knit group, and almost all the time could care less about expanding the breed.
Color and SOP are not the problem. The problem is a lack of numbers, and mainly a lack of desire to spread the breed to more people, especially whites. Whites are too valueable of an asset to the poultry industry, and far too many bridges have been burned.
Avoid SteveH or Cedarknob on here. Both were his usernames at one point or another. Although, I haven't seen him with either username on here in a while-- I'm sure he's either got a new identity, or is residing in a loony house by now. The guy is nuts, avoid at all costs.

Ok. I sort of thought the insanity thing was a prereq for breeding Cornish, so if you are saying someone is extra loony, will do.
In that case, do you know anyone in WA state that breeds ANY non-hatchery Cornish, that would be willing to chat with a relative newbie, who has the annoying tenacity of a terrier? If it helps, I can be rather entertaining... so I've been told. I could probably easily aquire Hatchery stuff for my Cornish / Delaware project, but that would be, well, easy. Sheesh.
I think it's rather odd when I run into a truly insular group. Even more when it's due to an interesting, and probably currently irrelevant past history. I tend to poke at them. Wheedling occasionally works. Flattery, bribery, trading of firstborn, er, poultry... I'll put this on my 5yr plan burner, rather than the one year.
BTW, in case you missed the underhand... WHAT on earth are you talking about regarding bridges and White Cornish??? I had no idea I'd stumbled on a group of Ahab's.

 

[big medicine]

Couple things,

There are two types of white.
Recessive white, which takes two copies to show itself, is much better at covering all color. This is the white of white Cornish, at least the ones we raised.
Dominant white, which will show itself with only one copy, and covers black pretty well, not as effective with gold. This is the white of white laced red Cornish.
It's only the white of white laced red that is dominant, although their may be red enhancers involved that may be causing some bleedthrough.

I don't think that Cornish breeders are not interested in expanding the breed, as much as they are uber cautious in who they are willing to trust to carry on their work, and precious blood lines. They get hit up every day by people who want to cross them to a rock or other breed to make their own broilers. There by pissing away a lifes work with these birds.

Even if newbies interest is to keep and breed pure Cornish, the breeder is skeptical if they will have the dedication to stay with such a difficult and challanging breed. They have seen it before, after a few years newby decides it's way easier to raise ( insert breed here) and give up on the Cornish, again resulting in loss of precious rare breeding stock.

What may be interpreted as indifference on the breeders part should maybe be looked at as part of prescreening process to weed out the casually interested.

 

[galanie]

After reading here for quite a while and talking to at least one LF Cornish breeder, I think Big Medicine is the one to listen to on this subject. Kfacres has had his own run ins and insane moments, as have we all from time to time. He did get a few quality birds finally but nearly had to move Heaven and Earth to do it. Such is the road for anyone wanting a quality LF Cornish, and especially whites. As stated, whites are rare nowadays and no breeder wants his work ****** off by breeding them to other breeds or giving them to people that will decide they're just too difficult to mess with.

 

[AletaG]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Helps.
Of course, it's easier to raise just about anything, from what I've read, than SOP Cornish. And since W are ww recessive, that makes it hard to bring traits into a line by outcrossing for desirable traits like better fertility. Like I said, sounds like this is the 5 yr plan here. It is still annoying for new interested parties to be painted by a 50 year old brush, and to be dismissed for utility breeding out of hand. Occasionally offering a cockerel some variety does not take him out of the running as a breeder of Cornish. Now, putting anything else over the hens, that's an issue, when you get (let me see if my averages I've seen are close) at most 150 eggs a year, and of those, only a "small amount" hatch (guessing less than 50%). Then from there, it sounds like there's issues with type even within a good line? No one's really specific about WHAT, or which lines have what issues. It's murky.
Me, I was truly hoping for someone within decent driving distance, because it would make the most sense to get that kind of constant input, and be able to give most of the progeny back until I had a good handle on things. Sort of an apprenticeship. I could give up the W for a few years if there's someone close enough that works with any of the LF Cornish so I can learn more about them hands on. Earn my stripes, drink cognac or moonshine with the right people, etc.

Couple things,
There are two types of white.Recessive white, which takes two copies to show itself, is much better at covering all color. This is the white of white Cornish, at least the ones we raised.
Dominant white, which will show itself with only one copy, and covers black pretty well, not as effective with gold. This is the white of white laced red Cornish.It's only the white of white laced red that is dominant, although their may be red enhancers involved that may be causing some bleedthrough.
I don't think that Cornish breeders are not interested in expanding the breed, as much as they are uber cautious in who they are willing to trust to carry on their work, and precious blood lines. They get hit up every day by people who want to cross them to a rock or other breed to make their own broilers. There by pissing away a lifes work with these birds.Even if newbies interest is to keep and breed pure Cornish, the breeder is skeptical if they will have the dedication to stay with such a difficult and challanging breed. They have seen it before, after a few years newby decides it's way easier to raise ( insert breed here) and give up on the Cornish, again resulting in loss of precious rare breeding stock.
What may be interpreted as indifference on the breeders part should maybe be looked at as part of prescreening process to weed out the casually interested.

After reading here for quite a while and talking to at least one LF Cornish breeder, I think Big Medicine is the one to listen to on this subject. Kfacres has had his own run ins and insane moments, as have we all from time to time. He did get a few quality birds finally but nearly had to move Heaven and Earth to do it. Such is the road for anyone wanting a quality LF Cornish, and especially whites. As stated, whites are rare nowadays and no breeder wants his work ****** off by breeding them to other breeds or giving them to people that will decide they're just too difficult to mess with.

 

[Arielle]

WHen good breeders hord their stock and do not sell it in HOPES of sparking a long term commitment, no wonder these breeds are so rare and dying out. THese breeders are shooting themselves in the foot and are not truely intersted in increasing the populations of these rare lines.

I bred horses for a lot of years, you can bet stallion owners were knocking on my door to breed to my mare. THis attitute by chicken breeders that is often mentioned turns me off. WHy should I even try to breed a bird to the SOP? Apparently I can put 25 years into breed good horses but I"m not capable of learning how to breed chickens to the SOP. Very frustrating.

Makes me want to stick with utility lines and production for farm use.

 

[big medicine]

Spare cockerels might not be as common as you would expect with other breeds.

The old time Cornish breeders I knew, mostly single mated, or trios if they had to, in an attempt to help their odds of what eggs they got being fertile. That and they tried to keep a spare male, or two, in reserve, to rotate in, in case a pen consistently showed clear eggs when candled.

Beyond fertillity issues, you've got to get them to hatch. They can be notorious for fully developed chicks failing to pip.

Once you get chicks on the ground, they are about like most breeds, till they start to mature. Then their game heritage starts to show. The young males will square off,(females too for that matter), as all chickens do, to establish pecking order. The game part shows when in other breeds the lesser bird turns and runs and that is usually the end of it. Well with these guys as they mature, the inclination to stop when bested, or allowing the bettered bird to retreat gracefully is not a common trait. Just to make it a bit more fun, well bred Cornish are so broad across the back, that when they happen to get flipped during their jousting, they can not right themselves. Many a fine Cornish have died laying on their back. legs flailing. This pugnacious demeanor is not limited to only the males, mixing hens will also result in feathers flying, or puting a cockerel in with a hen. It might not even be fighting, maybe something as simple as the bird getting spooked by something gets him on his back, just as dead.

These are a few issues that come to mind with breeding/raising Cornish not usually encountered when raising easier breeds.

 

[AletaG]

WHen good breeders hord their stock and do not sell it in HOPES of sparking a long term commitment, no wonder these breeds are so rare and dying out. THese breeders are shooting themselves in the foot and are not truely intersted in increasing the populations of these rare lines.
I bred horses for a lot of years, you can bet stallion owners were knocking on my door to breed to my mare. THis attitute by chicken breeders that is often mentioned turns me off. WHy should I even try to breed a bird to the SOP? Apparently I can put 25 years into breed good horses but I"m not capable of learning how to breed chickens to the SOP. Very frustrating.
Makes me want to stick with utility lines and production for farm use.

Arielle, I have only seen this with Cornish - I've been pretty heavily working with people who are very eager to breed - up their HRIR, H Dels and H Buckeyes at any rate - if you have a chance, look up Robert Blosl. I don't have time to look into anything else, but please, for the sake of the breeds, don't give up on Heritage birds just yet!

Spare cockerels might not be as common as you would expect with other breeds.The old time Cornish breeders I knew, mostly single mated, or trios if they had to, in an attempt to help their odds of what eggs they got being fertile. That and they tried to keep a spare male, or two, in reserve, to rotate in, in case a pen consistently showed clear eggs when candled.
Beyond fertillity issues, you've got to get them to hatch. They can be notorious for fully developed chicks failing to pip.
This pugnacious demeanor is not limited to only the males, mixing hens will also result in feathers flying, or puting a cockerel in with a hen. It might not even be fighting, maybe something as simple as the bird getting spooked by something gets him on his back, just as dead.

I had known most of this... I just meant that sperm lasts 3 to 30 days from a mating, so if you borrowed a cockerel for a day for something else, unless you are saying there is literally a sperm county issue, which wouldn't make sense as crosses seem to work out fine, there should not be any perceived or real loss. (and I don't mean borrow from someone else, I mean take MY Cornish (if I had one) and put it over one or 3 of MY LF heritage girls... each would lay cornish fathered eggs for several days at least)...
I have been mulling over the pugnacity issue. Seems like you'd have to go and tractor them by the pair for the day... and nights put them up in rabbit cages alone or by the pair. (If you want them to eat bugs and what not and scratch). I know typical free range mostly won't work. If any were sweeter tempered, fine, let 'em range with the rest... but I was mentally prepared for this one...

 

[Arielle]

Aleta--- oh I'm not giving up on the heritage breeds. I had an extensive concersation with a cornish breeder and really felt like I was being persuaded NOT to get into them. Later I found this thread, and the folks here more enthusiastic about sharing information.

Oh I toggle between finding this all very amuzing and very depressing. IN the case abaove I was genuinely collecting informatin about a breed in an effort to evaluate as a p ossible farm bird. Shot down right at the starting gate. Ironically, I quit trying for the cornish, but will work on a project cross instead; and focus on getting buckeyes and see if they can do the job I need.

In Dutch horses, if there is a fertility problem, the stallion is not allowed into the breeding program. Keeps fertility UP.