Resource gaurding, food aggression...

[RiverOtter]

Quote:
I have on more then one occasion seen an adult dog, often the pup's mother, let out a roar, take the pups whole head in it's mouth and shove it back as a disciplinary measure. I've got small hands and don't want to risk moving the head at a funny angle so instead of the pups' whole head I grab the scruff and slide it back. They get the same message
I never said to alpha roll them. That's pretty harsh and you can hurt a dog's neck that way. A push on the shoulder can be a harsh punishment to some dogs (my beagle for instance, I would never do it to him) and for other dogs a playful way to get their attention (my kind-off a BC - his response is if I really can't chase the cat can I just play with you?? and at the lightest of touches will happily fall over so he can bat me with his paws)
But every pup I've dealt with responds to me grabbing the scruff and sliding them back as Oh, you mean that's not right? and depending on the personality of the pup they may challenge or they may "sin no more"

I've never seen one bite another over the muzzle either.
And no, the tooth slap isn't a status thing - it's an I said back OFF thing. And yes, I've heard of smaller animals being killed by it when caught on the head. I once knew someone who was - well, you can imagine how upset - when her dog did the "grab whole head in mouth and shove" to her new kitten. The dog didn't mean to hurt the kitten. He was 7 and had lived with lots of cats. But he was big enough that the kitten's neck got broken.
My animals are NOT allowed to discipline each other. My ultra-dominant male trusts me as his leader and if the pup or a cat is bothering him THAT much he gives this whiny sorry I'm growling but I need something done here growl and I come and fix it for him.

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

Interesting thread

I think the important thing about this isn't the fact that the dog corrected the cat for eating her food, I don't blame her

I do think one needs to be sure the dog doesn't have insecurity about food and is OK with all humans taking resources from the her. I like the idea of a safe zone for feeding. I also use a technique of making the dogs sit and stay until they are released to eat. I think this establishes that the human are in charge of the food resources. If all the humans in the house hold do this, that would help to establish their relationship with the dog.

So, we feed all five dogs together. The only issue I find is that I need to watch over them occasionally. The higher ranked dogs will sometimes steal from the lower ranked dog. Basically,I play cop and correct (verbal) the thief.

I agree with the non-violence position and trading with treats. We use it a lot.

One question, I hip check errant dogs if they are not responding to me. Am I being violent?

I know for a fact that the dogs use the same body language to correct each other.

Jim

 

[arabianequine]

So how would you get something from your dog that is in its mouth and they do not want to give it up? Especially if they are not use to you touching in their mouth, messing with there food etc.. I disagree....I think they need to know that you are gonna get and do what you want to and you are the boss, the alpha leader. Sure feed them in separate areas alone. What if the dog is chewing on a stuffed animal and gets a eye off and chewing on it? Picks up something hard that it could choke on that someone dropped? For example a cooked chicken bone? Other animals poop? My dog knows how to "drop it" but she does not always do it so I get it out of her mouth my self and she is fine with it. I will to contain her if she is running off from me. She does not growl, bite, and if I have to grab her by the scruff of the neck you don't do it hard and release as soon as they ease up from trying to get away from you. My dog knows when she is caught and sits instantly so I let go and do what I feel is best for her at the time. That is not abuse it is making her mind me.

By the way dogs are not kids and kids are not dogs.

 

[taraann81]

Thanks for everybodies input. I actually found everybodies responses very interesting! Like I had said, I am not too concerned about it. And novv even less so.

Blacksheep, I think you mentioning the fact that resource gaurding "is not status seeking" vvas helpful to me. Having never seen this behaviour in my older dogs, I seemed to have not read much about it and the info you provided has put my mind a ease even more so.

So I assume, her correcting the cat, versus her being happy vvith me handling her food, Means she is confident I vvon't take it and I do like to put my hand in their dish and add somethng better! It made my bullys love having a hand near their dish.

I think everybody contributed valid points to this thread. I feel lucky that I found this forum vvith so many knovvledgeable people.

Nov for a 2nd question, that I assume vvill be lost in this thread but I'll try anyvvays. This morning after changing my sons diaper, the pup grabbed it(I knovv gross) and obviously vvanted to eat it(I sat it beside me on the floor vvhile I vvas putting the nevv diaper on him, Didn't think the pup vvould go for it as it vvasn't umm..."that" kind of dirty, just vvet). VVell after reading some of these responses last night, I offered a "trade up" for cheese. She happily agreed, but took the cheese very abruptly catching my fingers vvith those eedle sharp puppy teeth.

VVhat is the "right" vvay to teach a dog to take things nicely? VVhen the bullys vvere pups, I vvould pull the treat back avvay from then until they took it nicely. But I novv think that taht may be counterproductive..Teaching the pup she has to grab it before its gone?

Thanks everyone for their help and advice.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
No, that's the way it's usually done. Keep the treat safely in your hand so the dog can't get hold of it til YOU say so. You don't need to actually take your hand back, necessarily, just close your hand to cover the treat so it is no longer available. Wait until they quit nosing at your hand and just sit there looking at you, and then offer it again, again refusing to relinquish it unless they are gentle. Lather rinse repeat. For a few dogs you may need to have somewhat modified standards of what constitutes "gentle" when you first start working on this, but IME most dogs clue in pretty quick to what they need to try doing.

Russell may be my first dog of my own but I've done the above with lots of other peoples' dogs over the years and they "get" it real quickly. The most difficult thing is being 100% consistant every moment of every day, and never absentmindedly letting them shark things outta your hand, since that makes it harder to establish gentleness as a habit.

Pat

 

[Redyre Rotties]

I teach my dogs, with the trade, that if I ask for something, they have to give it up. They never learn otherwise. If I want something they have, no matter what it is, it is a non issue.

I will say again: I have Rottweilers of correct temperament. I have multi High In Trial dogs, dogs who pull me all over in a cart, pet therapy dogs, dogs who are flawlessly mannered. I DO NOT FIND IT NECESSARY TO USE FORCE. I have dogs who are bomb proof, who kids can fall all over and take ANYTHING from them if they want to. My dogs spit out anything if I ask them to, when I ask them to do it.

FORCE AND INTIMIDATION ARE NOT NECESSARY. Scruffing is not necessary. Making a dog worried or upset about his food or other resources is NOT NECESSARY.

Trading up WORKS. I have generations of dogs here who have never EVER growled at me, or "caped" any resource, because they have no anxiety over their things. I have an adult male who plays fetch and tug and catch with 2 kids who live next door. They pull and tug and run and play in my yard, this dog brings them anything they throw, and has no care at all if they reach for him, dive on his head, pull from his mouth, zip zero nothing.

I have my dogs in public almost every day. They are totally and completely relaxed and safe with people they do not know because of their early and continuous conditioning that they need not worry about their resources.

I am a TRUSTED LEADER.

Force is not necessary. Scruffing is not necessary. Intimidating any dog or puppy over his meals is not necessary. Intimidation and correction of a dog showing possession, or growling over resources can remove the warnings dogs give before they might bite.

Dogs are property and people can train them any way they see fit, however, violence and physical correction do not have to be part of the picture at ANY time.

The only time I would ever use physical violence with any dog is to protect myself from a bite, or maybe to break up a serious fight.

 

[Redyre Rotties]

Quote:
No, that's the way it's usually done. Keep the treat safely in your hand so the dog can't get hold of it til YOU say so. You don't need to actually take your hand back, necessarily, just close your hand to cover the treat so it is no longer available. Wait until they quit nosing at your hand and just sit there looking at you, and then offer it again, again refusing to relinquish it unless they are gentle. Lather rinse repeat. For a few dogs you may need to have somewhat modified standards of what constitutes "gentle" when you first start working on this, but IME most dogs clue in pretty quick to what they need to try doing.

Russell may be my first dog of my own but I've done the above with lots of other peoples' dogs over the years and they "get" it real quickly. The most difficult thing is being 100% consistant every moment of every day, and never absentmindedly letting them shark things outta your hand, since that makes it harder to establish gentleness as a habit.

Pat

I would have said "OWWWWWW!!!!" in a high pitched voice, at the same time removing my hand with the cheese in it. Then I would have lured the pup a step or two away from the diaper, and quickly offer the treat while trying to not let the pup get the teeth on me if possible.

Here is a great way to work on teaching any dog or puppy to inhibit the force of their bite and use their mouths gently. If you seach "bite inhibition" you will find other links on this topic as well.

 

[lishah2000]

Quote:
I used this exact method with an extreme resource guarder. It does work. He already had the worry over resources and it never totally went away, but trading took away the conflict and greatly improved the guarding.

Twice it worked in an emergency situation. Once involved him finding a dead rat. Not knowing if it had been poisoned or not, it was an emergency. I happened to be eating a burger and had a small bit left. He happily dropped the rat for the burger.

The second time he grabbed a piece of chicken off the table (he was also surfer in the beginning). Not wanting him to be rewarded for stealing something off the table, I instantly grabbed the chicken and took it away. (This dog had no problems being extremely aggressive over a resource when we got him). After I took the chicken, he sat and waited for his "trade".

 

[taraann81]

Quote:
No, that's the way it's usually done. Keep the treat safely in your hand so the dog can't get hold of it til YOU say so. You don't need to actually take your hand back, necessarily, just close your hand to cover the treat so it is no longer available. Wait until they quit nosing at your hand and just sit there looking at you, and then offer it again, again refusing to relinquish it unless they are gentle. Lather rinse repeat. For a few dogs you may need to have somewhat modified standards of what constitutes "gentle" when you first start working on this, but IME most dogs clue in pretty quick to what they need to try doing.

Russell may be my first dog of my own but I've done the above with lots of other peoples' dogs over the years and they "get" it real quickly. The most difficult thing is being 100% consistant every moment of every day, and never absentmindedly letting them shark things outta your hand, since that makes it harder to establish gentleness as a habit.

Pat

I would have said "OWWWWWW!!!!" in a high pitched voice, at the same time removing my hand with the cheese in it. Then I would have lured the pup a step or two away from the diaper, and quickly offer the treat while trying to not let the pup get the teeth on me if possible.

Here is a great way to work on teaching any dog or puppy to inhibit the force of their bite and use their mouths gently. If you seach "bite inhibition" you will find other links on this topic as well.

Thanks, yes vve use bite inhibition novv, have vvith all of our dogs. Thats the vvay I teach my kids to stop the pup from biting too hard and novv aster having her 3 vveeks she bearly even mouths..until you offer a tasty treat. I guess I didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize to use the same techniques vvith food involved. Thanks for the refresher course!

 

[dewey]

My thinking is along the lines that my dogs should not be making their own decisions on aggression towards any animal or human, and that it's not acceptable. As their leader, everything in the house rightfully belongs to me, whether it's my cats, my furniture, food (no matter what type or who is eating it), toys, or any other items, and everyone gets along happily and feeling secure. My dogs should rightfully view themselves as subordinate to me and therefore not able to take my things or decide who eats what and when, or decide when aggression can be displayed. They should look to me to make those decisions as leader.

Trading-up to get something away from my dogs serves to reinforce (unwittingly) my subordinate position and their dominate one -- once again I possessed something she viewed as hers for the taking and that she wanted (more than my other item she already previously took from me) and then she ends up taking even the better item from my possession. If a dog views themself as subordinate they will drop an item if the leader wants it. (Not that any of us actually desire diapers!LOL)

Actions that can seem insignificant or very subtle actually speak volumes to my dogs, and I can foster confusion in them if sometimes a dominant action on their part is accepted by me, yet a different one is corrected at other times.

I think dogs have the language down very well and that it's me as a human that needs the training, lol. I'm sure they realize that...we must seem very confused to them at times.