~ Retired and Starting My Future In The Foothills ~
- Thread starter gryeyes
- Start date
Congratulations Linda!!!!
Hooray and may you have a wonderful Christmas with your peeps!!!
Hooray and may you have a wonderful Christmas with your peeps!!!
For those of you who have not met Linda in person, she is EVERY BIT the real-deal she portrays herself on BYC. She is probably the single-most amazing person I have ever known in my life )outside of DH).
I hope she did extremely well today. Still trying to contact her for details.
I hope she did extremely well today. Still trying to contact her for details.
Wonderful! How many can you have?
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- Thread starter
- #785
It's taken me this long to post The Whole Hearing Story because I stopped for breakfast at the Buttercup Pantry, after which I came home and took care of my chickens, ducks and geese. First, I removed the "Chicken Country" sign from my front gate (deliberate tactic, wait for it) then went into the house to spend some private time in that little room with the electronic dog door. Zorro, who is aging, has gotten hard of hearing and he was asleep under the bed covers. Dooley greeted me with his usual excitement, and Smudge the Himalayan granted me his presence and fluffy tail thwapping of my shins. It's been a few tense days of late.
THEN I took care of the chickens, opening up the people door to the coop. Dumped and refilled the two kiddie pools for the ducks. Filled the stock tank to its very brim.
And then I took a nap, sorry. So that's why it's taken so long to post.
Prevailing, <*snort of glee*> let me begin the tale.
I got lost on the way there. Yup. Missed a turn. My surroundings started to look very Not Like The Way I Remembered from a few months ago. As 9 a.m. rapidly approached, I pulled over and called the real estate broker on my cell phone (to her cell phone). Of course she was exasperated with me (gently) but she talked me back onto the freeway from where I was calling and "into" the right corner. John was out in front of the building; he pointed to an empty parking spot. The real estate agent was also there (both broker and agent, two different women) but nobody else. Just those three folks. Well, other than the Code Enforcement Officer, the Hearing Officer, an apparent County Employee whose sole role was to operate the audio recording equipment. Us, and Them.
The Hearing Officer explained the procedures, we all stated our names (except for the lady watching the ancient recording machine display), were sworn in, and the Code Enforcement passed out duplicate copies of the entire file in its heavy duty, sectioned and labeled folder.
Oh my. This is IMPORTANT stuff. Each page in each section was briefly described or explained, I was asked if I had any objections to the documents, and it was entered as evidence.
The Code Enforcement Officer was directed to state the county's case verbally, as well. Yadda, yadda, yadda. He got a complaint, sent out a notice, received no reply, made a site visit, the Property Owner was present, yadda yadda yadda. All factual. Then he said, "And last night I received this letter and attached photo via fax, from the complainant who just heard about this hearing and wanted to be here, but he had other business." He handed the two page document copies to the Hearing Officer and me. We read them.
Hmmmm. Here are the main points: Across from his address. Property Owner (me, named) recently acquired about 65 chickens. County road 300 yards long, 5 homes, each about 1/2 acre. (My) roosters crow at all hours of the night. Summer, windows open, impossible now. Overwhelming smell of chicken manure. (His) realtor told him his property is virtually worthless because of noise and smell .... 65 plus chickens. 4, 5 hens personal use, no problem. Advertises eggs for sale on carton (photo attached), other neighbors said they bought eggs, checked with County, no license to sell eggs.
Here's one really high point, which I must quote in its entirety: "There are no Public Health inspections on her eggs to protect the innocence public from possible disease." (Note it's not the "innocent" public....)
Oh, and the letter continued: Doesn't harvest her chickens. Population growing unchecked. Another important quote: "Health risks caused by the overcrowding of this many chickens in that small of a space are likely. Ms. (Me)'s conduct is harmful to the chickens as well, due to the severe overcrowding which causes unsanitary conditions."
And the final paragraph said my roosters (mine, not his) are beautiful animals. He "hopes that if the County orders Ms. (Me) to remove her chickens that she is allowed a reasonable time to find suitable homes for the chickens."
<*taking another sip of coffee and drag of my cigarette as I type this*>
My ire rose, reading it, of course. Suitable homes?
The Hearing Officer flipped over to the faxed photo of one of the cartons of eggs I GAVE to the girlfriend of the son of the letter's author. It had one of my custom labels and I had written my phone number on it. He set down the document. Did the Code Enforcement have anything further to add? No.
My turn. Y'all know what I expressed as my case: specifically looked for property where there were no restrictions on chickens, offer to purchase contingent upon no restrictions, how and who determined it was okay, moved chickens up there July 24th, everything else after that was as the Code Enforcement Officer stated. But they're pets, they're all named, the Code Enforcement Officer even said they were friendly to him, I never would have purchased the property had I known chickens weren't allowed in RE-5 zoning district, less than a full acre, where that described? Some more of my own yadda yadda.
Then my real estate broker and agent spoke to the issue. Eloquently. The agent, the mother of the current sheriff, did smile when she was asked to spell her name.
Cross-examination by the Code Enforcement Officer touched on the July 13 versus July 24 issue; only a notice, but when he was there in August, there were chickens. Not cited until noticed and given a deadline to abate the problem.
That started a.... coversation.... between my real estate gals and the CE Officer. (Man, I'm tired of typing that out... although he is a very nice man, really.)
After a bit, the Hearing Officer interrupted to say it may be an informal procedure, but it's not supposed to be a lengthy conversation. He had some questions for the CE Officer.
Y'see, in preparation, the Hearing Officer had reviewed the County Code mentioned, then searched through the Ordinances to discover how a member of the public "or a real estate professional" could find zoning restrictions prohibiting chickens in that location. Plus, every reference to "stable" referred to a horse. No other domestic farm animal. Horse. How would a reasonable reader deduce "horse" also meant "chickens?"
The CE Officer pointed to the file folder again, opening it to the copies of the county interpretations of stable, which went all the way back to 2004.
Ahh, but the public has no access to those internal interpretations. Sure they do, if they call the Planning Department and ask for the official interpretation.....
The Hearing Officer interrupted the CE Officer. Actually, he simply dismissed the lame explanation.
And then the SENIOR Planner came into the room. He asked to be heard. Granted. He reiterated what the CE Officer said about "interpretations." He was stopped, too. The Hearing Officer said, "That's neither here nor there and I've already told your associate so. I strongly suggest the next version of the County Codes is more clear and those interpretations are codified."
****Sorry, long break on the phone answering questions from good friends***********
I glanced back at the three people in the audience seats ("my side") and John made a quick zipping motion across his closed mouth, then both thumbs up displayed fairly low, not really obviously.
The Hearing Officer then said, "I"m ready to end this hearing." He closed a file and moved it to one side. "The procedures call for a written decision to be issued within five days. I can, however, make a verbal statement of that decision, which I will not change unless there is new evidence from either party presented within those 5 days in writing, cc'd to all parties." He looked at the CE Officer, and then me again. "I find the appellant has prevailed in this instance."
"I do have something to say to Ms. (Me): I want you to take a good look at your operation. I don't believe 52 chickens are pets, no, I don't, and I don't believe you only give away your eggs. I think you need to take a very close look at how you're operating on that parcel and take care not to violate other codes, regarding sales, or create any nuisance for which there could be other actions taken. Tone it down. I have no idea if - whenever the Planning Department gets the codes updated - you will be grandfathered in, or not."
I thanked him.
Out in the parking lot, there was a lot of jubilation. The Code Enforcement Officer came out to tell me my $300.00 will be refunded after the written decision has been processed. He also added, "I spent some time outside your fence and anybody who says they can smell chicken manure is full of it. And your chickens are not being mistreated. Maybe some roosters should find new homes, though... Y'know?? In any case, I see nothing unless I get a complaint about it. I could drive by and see your chickens now and I'd take no action. I work solely on complaints. And this one has un-happened."
My agent said, "You know what sort of law suit Linda could initiate against us if this had been upheld? There's be a whole lot of money that could be lost here because of those stupid Codes being so unclear." He nodded and shook our hands.
John added, as we walked to our cars, "Linda, this doesn't happen very much in these things. YOU WON. And don't worry about not being grandfathered in, you have to be. A lawyer would tear the county apart if they tried to come after you again even then."
So, all in all... a really darned good day. I can now actually utilize the nutrients in the food I eat, instead of how my body has been refusing to digest it adequately for the past few weeks.
All the roosters crowed when I got home.
I took down the Chicken Country sign to mess with a certain resident on the other side of the street. Perhaps I am taking a reasonable amount of time to.... do something about my chickens.
THEN I took care of the chickens, opening up the people door to the coop. Dumped and refilled the two kiddie pools for the ducks. Filled the stock tank to its very brim.
And then I took a nap, sorry. So that's why it's taken so long to post.
Prevailing, <*snort of glee*> let me begin the tale.
I got lost on the way there. Yup. Missed a turn. My surroundings started to look very Not Like The Way I Remembered from a few months ago. As 9 a.m. rapidly approached, I pulled over and called the real estate broker on my cell phone (to her cell phone). Of course she was exasperated with me (gently) but she talked me back onto the freeway from where I was calling and "into" the right corner. John was out in front of the building; he pointed to an empty parking spot. The real estate agent was also there (both broker and agent, two different women) but nobody else. Just those three folks. Well, other than the Code Enforcement Officer, the Hearing Officer, an apparent County Employee whose sole role was to operate the audio recording equipment. Us, and Them.
The Hearing Officer explained the procedures, we all stated our names (except for the lady watching the ancient recording machine display), were sworn in, and the Code Enforcement passed out duplicate copies of the entire file in its heavy duty, sectioned and labeled folder.
Oh my. This is IMPORTANT stuff. Each page in each section was briefly described or explained, I was asked if I had any objections to the documents, and it was entered as evidence.
The Code Enforcement Officer was directed to state the county's case verbally, as well. Yadda, yadda, yadda. He got a complaint, sent out a notice, received no reply, made a site visit, the Property Owner was present, yadda yadda yadda. All factual. Then he said, "And last night I received this letter and attached photo via fax, from the complainant who just heard about this hearing and wanted to be here, but he had other business." He handed the two page document copies to the Hearing Officer and me. We read them.
Hmmmm. Here are the main points: Across from his address. Property Owner (me, named) recently acquired about 65 chickens. County road 300 yards long, 5 homes, each about 1/2 acre. (My) roosters crow at all hours of the night. Summer, windows open, impossible now. Overwhelming smell of chicken manure. (His) realtor told him his property is virtually worthless because of noise and smell .... 65 plus chickens. 4, 5 hens personal use, no problem. Advertises eggs for sale on carton (photo attached), other neighbors said they bought eggs, checked with County, no license to sell eggs.
Here's one really high point, which I must quote in its entirety: "There are no Public Health inspections on her eggs to protect the innocence public from possible disease." (Note it's not the "innocent" public....)
Oh, and the letter continued: Doesn't harvest her chickens. Population growing unchecked. Another important quote: "Health risks caused by the overcrowding of this many chickens in that small of a space are likely. Ms. (Me)'s conduct is harmful to the chickens as well, due to the severe overcrowding which causes unsanitary conditions."
And the final paragraph said my roosters (mine, not his) are beautiful animals. He "hopes that if the County orders Ms. (Me) to remove her chickens that she is allowed a reasonable time to find suitable homes for the chickens."
<*taking another sip of coffee and drag of my cigarette as I type this*>
My ire rose, reading it, of course. Suitable homes?
The Hearing Officer flipped over to the faxed photo of one of the cartons of eggs I GAVE to the girlfriend of the son of the letter's author. It had one of my custom labels and I had written my phone number on it. He set down the document. Did the Code Enforcement have anything further to add? No.
My turn. Y'all know what I expressed as my case: specifically looked for property where there were no restrictions on chickens, offer to purchase contingent upon no restrictions, how and who determined it was okay, moved chickens up there July 24th, everything else after that was as the Code Enforcement Officer stated. But they're pets, they're all named, the Code Enforcement Officer even said they were friendly to him, I never would have purchased the property had I known chickens weren't allowed in RE-5 zoning district, less than a full acre, where that described? Some more of my own yadda yadda.
Then my real estate broker and agent spoke to the issue. Eloquently. The agent, the mother of the current sheriff, did smile when she was asked to spell her name.
Cross-examination by the Code Enforcement Officer touched on the July 13 versus July 24 issue; only a notice, but when he was there in August, there were chickens. Not cited until noticed and given a deadline to abate the problem.
That started a.... coversation.... between my real estate gals and the CE Officer. (Man, I'm tired of typing that out... although he is a very nice man, really.)
After a bit, the Hearing Officer interrupted to say it may be an informal procedure, but it's not supposed to be a lengthy conversation. He had some questions for the CE Officer.
Y'see, in preparation, the Hearing Officer had reviewed the County Code mentioned, then searched through the Ordinances to discover how a member of the public "or a real estate professional" could find zoning restrictions prohibiting chickens in that location. Plus, every reference to "stable" referred to a horse. No other domestic farm animal. Horse. How would a reasonable reader deduce "horse" also meant "chickens?"
The CE Officer pointed to the file folder again, opening it to the copies of the county interpretations of stable, which went all the way back to 2004.
Ahh, but the public has no access to those internal interpretations. Sure they do, if they call the Planning Department and ask for the official interpretation.....
The Hearing Officer interrupted the CE Officer. Actually, he simply dismissed the lame explanation.
And then the SENIOR Planner came into the room. He asked to be heard. Granted. He reiterated what the CE Officer said about "interpretations." He was stopped, too. The Hearing Officer said, "That's neither here nor there and I've already told your associate so. I strongly suggest the next version of the County Codes is more clear and those interpretations are codified."
****Sorry, long break on the phone answering questions from good friends***********
I glanced back at the three people in the audience seats ("my side") and John made a quick zipping motion across his closed mouth, then both thumbs up displayed fairly low, not really obviously.
The Hearing Officer then said, "I"m ready to end this hearing." He closed a file and moved it to one side. "The procedures call for a written decision to be issued within five days. I can, however, make a verbal statement of that decision, which I will not change unless there is new evidence from either party presented within those 5 days in writing, cc'd to all parties." He looked at the CE Officer, and then me again. "I find the appellant has prevailed in this instance."
"I do have something to say to Ms. (Me): I want you to take a good look at your operation. I don't believe 52 chickens are pets, no, I don't, and I don't believe you only give away your eggs. I think you need to take a very close look at how you're operating on that parcel and take care not to violate other codes, regarding sales, or create any nuisance for which there could be other actions taken. Tone it down. I have no idea if - whenever the Planning Department gets the codes updated - you will be grandfathered in, or not."
I thanked him.
Out in the parking lot, there was a lot of jubilation. The Code Enforcement Officer came out to tell me my $300.00 will be refunded after the written decision has been processed. He also added, "I spent some time outside your fence and anybody who says they can smell chicken manure is full of it. And your chickens are not being mistreated. Maybe some roosters should find new homes, though... Y'know?? In any case, I see nothing unless I get a complaint about it. I could drive by and see your chickens now and I'd take no action. I work solely on complaints. And this one has un-happened."
My agent said, "You know what sort of law suit Linda could initiate against us if this had been upheld? There's be a whole lot of money that could be lost here because of those stupid Codes being so unclear." He nodded and shook our hands.
John added, as we walked to our cars, "Linda, this doesn't happen very much in these things. YOU WON. And don't worry about not being grandfathered in, you have to be. A lawyer would tear the county apart if they tried to come after you again even then."
So, all in all... a really darned good day. I can now actually utilize the nutrients in the food I eat, instead of how my body has been refusing to digest it adequately for the past few weeks.
All the roosters crowed when I got home.
I took down the Chicken Country sign to mess with a certain resident on the other side of the street. Perhaps I am taking a reasonable amount of time to.... do something about my chickens.
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Congrats!!!!! And now I can go to bed.....
Nice Job Ms. Appellant
What a weenie the neighbor is.
See, keep the faith and great things shall happen
Okay, so now back to the our regularly scheduled program: I think it's pretty cute that John did the "shut your mouth" move when you turned around
He knows you pretty well Ms. Linda
What a weenie the neighbor is.
See, keep the faith and great things shall happen
Okay, so now back to the our regularly scheduled program: I think it's pretty cute that John did the "shut your mouth" move when you turned around
He knows you pretty well Ms. Linda
Yaaaaaay!
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
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