RIR's and New Hampshire Reds?

[Illia]

The only thing I'll say back, Robert Blosl, is that New Hampshires (no red in the name - that's a hatchery add-in) are indeed a heritage breed, and are just as "abused" as Rhode Island Reds when it comes to hatchery vs true type. In fact true New Hampshires are much more difficult to find than true RIR's. Take a look at a thread recently posted here on heritage New Hampshires, how rare they truly are, and what kathyinmo's birds from Doug Aiken look like.

Also, just another note - People may say that Production Reds vs Heritage/Show Reds is just a difference of aesthetics, the only worth that the show birds have is their prettiness and ability to win shows. . . .

Not true.

Rhode Island Reds were NOT created and further bred to be skinny, orange looking egg laying machines like hatcheries spit out. They were made to be robust, meaty, dual purpose egg layers that, now these days, only show quality breeders have. Again, forget the fact that they're show birds, the "Show Quality" ones are closer to the heritage type simply because they're still dual purpose. Hatchery reds are not. They're egg layers, and that's all. THAT is why we call them PRODUCTION reds.

There's a reason when people buy from hatcheries, they keep needing to coming back for more chicks every few years.

 

[punky rooster]

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Amen!

ok

 

[Chris09]

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He was a Red breed out of N.Y.
Chris

 

[spartacus_63]

What is so hard to understand.

It is not that I don't understand Bob. It is that I don't agree. I know that getting into a debate with you over chickens is silly. You have a long record of excellence and many many achievements in poultry, and dare I say a Rhodie Scholar.

So I will not open that can of worms. Rather I will attempt to become more informed in the science of breeding.

Can you explain to me:

1) what makes a breed?

2) at which point do offspring from pure breeds stop being members of their parent breed?

3) if two different breeders working with the equally Pure Breeds, selectively breed for two different purposes and obtain similar looking but significantly different performing strains, do we now have two different breeds, and what governing body regulates that?

I will also add that pure bred dogs are worth no more than cross bred dogs unless they are registered with one of they clubs. Even pure bred, registered dogs do not fetch a much higher price unless they come from established lines. The establishment comes from performance. ie, ribbons and pups with ribbons. Or if you are in the field trials of dog breeding, then ability weighs heavier than looks. So we can go back to the beagle example. Some look really good, like the pictures in the books. Some can bring a rabbit back to the hunter under the most challenging conditions. They are both Beagles and they both fetch a handy price, but their owners will often disagree at whose is the better (more Beagle) dog.​

 

[punky rooster]

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your birds are not pure breds/ and thats kind of like the pure RIR and NH breeding
ETA: your birds also do not look like real RIR and the other strain would be a higher producing strain.

 

[punky rooster]

look here http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issues/4/4-2/the_history_of_the_rhode_island_red.html

 

[spartacus_63]

There's a reason when people buy from hatcheries, they keep needing to coming back for more chicks every few years. wink

Illia, if you have followed my input, you can see that one of my goals is to have a flock that breeds true (the offspring display the same characteristics as the parents). Since I am only on my second generation of RIR, I can only attest to the fact that my second generation has performed as well as the first to date. Keep in mind that my second generation has only recently started laying eggs so the jury is still out. I will not allow emotion or pride to drive my selection. If these birds do not continue to perform, one of two conclusions can be made. Either I failed in breeding, or the hatchery was less than honest with their product.​

 

[spartacus_63]

your birds are not pure breds/ and thats kind of like the pure RIR and NH breeding
ETA: your birds also do not look like real RIR and the other strain would be a higher producing strain.

Punky, although you are entitled to your opinion, you may want to reconsider throwing stones so close to Christmas.

Also, I am uncertain that you have ever seen any of my RIRs other than one of my rosters.​

 

[Illia]

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Illia, if you have followed my input, you can see that one of my goals is to have a flock that breeds true (the offspring display the same characteristics as the parents). Since I am only on my second generation of RIR, I can only attest to the fact that my second generation has performed as well as the first to date. Keep in mind that my second generation has only recently started laying eggs so the jury is still out. I will not allow emotion or pride to drive my selection. If these birds do not continue to perform, one of two conclusions can be made. Either I failed in breeding, or the hatchery was less than honest with their product.

Right there is your ticket. I am not doubting you at all or objecting to your breeding, really, I just don't see proof that you have your birds up to the heritage/SOP status. However, if you do feel any doubt, . . . The answer is in the hatchery. I personally cannot see it possible that anyone grab some Reds from Murray McMurray and breed them from there on, especially in 2-3 generations, to go back to the SOP, dual purpose, heritage type. Hatchery "Production Reds" are just too skinny, too short lived, and too production-type to do that. I can see someone getting the red color back, yes, but the body is going to take more than one can do with just hatchery stock.

 

[Chris09]

Ill see if I cant answer your questions for you then when Bob gets back on well see how he answers them.

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In most cases the Breed Standard and Genetics but there are some exceptions and some breeds don't have a Breed Standard [example - Sex-links, EEs, and production type breeds]

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They will always be, ''members of their parent breed" it is genetically imposable not to be. Even in line breeding you will only be able to breed all but a percentage [I believe it is 1/16 th %] of one or the other parent stock out. You can breed them till you are old and gray and those birds will always carry a percentage of the parent stock genes in them.
That is why a lot of breeders weather breeders that breed for show or for production will tell you that your stock will only be as good as the parent stock..

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do we now have two different breeds

Yes, you will have two different breeds.

what governing body regulates that

The Breed Standard of the original breeding pair.
Example -- The Rhode Island Red and New Hampshire.

Chris​