Rooster Only Flock

[Cyan the chicken parent]

Okay, now I’m really confused…

This morning Murphy’s eyes were crusted shut with dried blood. Looked like his comb had started bleeding at some point overnight.

Yesterday I left the boys together because I’ve still been afraid of them fighting worse when I reintroduce them back again and they had seemed fairly relaxed. Maybe not best buds like normal but were not acting aggressive in any way.

Since Murphy couldn’t see I grabbed him and washed his eyes (as best as he would let me) enough to where they could open and kept him in a large dog crate while I was at work just to be safe. Now that I’m home I am supervising them together and they did not immediately charge for each other but Murphy went straight to fiddling around in the shavings looking for things to do or eat. Moe watched him closely. Did a dominance (mating) “dance” and Murphy quickly turned the other way which I took as “I don’t want to fight, man, you can be in charge”. Ten more minutes goes by and moe is following Murphy around and watching him but no further displays. Then Murphy walks behind Moe and Moe turns and tries to bite him and chases Murphy off for a a couple feet but stopped when I took a step forward.

No further interactions between the two and they are sitting a few feet apart. Murphy really looks down. I’m sure he’s hurting. But I just don’t trust Moe not to go after him again.

If I put Murphy back in the cage (he was SO ANXIOUS TO GET OUT) I feel like every time I let him out Moe will feel the need to put him back in his place, and if I put Moe in the cage then when I let him out, he’s going to come out fighting for top position.

I almost feel like it would be easier if there were more roosters so Murphy does get the brunt of Moes assertiveness.

Is it better to risk keeping them together or is it better to pen one of them up? Sitting calmly together now only a foot from each other.

P.s. there was Zero chance they have seen females since the fight.
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Oh my gosh your boys are so gorgeous!!! Do you know their breeds by any chance?

 

[EdnaAndEdith]

Sadly I do not know their breeds. I think Moe might be part Americana but I’m not sure. He has a few feathers down his legs and feet too which I don’t believe matches with the Americana guess. But I’m not sure. I have no idea what Murphy (the white one) is…. I’ll post some better pictures and see if you guys have any ideas.

Update on the fighting situation: they seem to get getting along fine with no further evidence of problems. Moe “shoulder checks” Murphy from time to time but Murphy makes it clear he’s okay being the low man. Wounds are healing well.

 

[EdnaAndEdith]

 

[talkinboutchickens]

It sounds like you care about your babes so much
I have 2 roos that fight a ton, but it's more like the other gets on the other one more.
One time Benny, the one who was getting attacked, got a chunk taken out of his comb from our other rooster Ledo. It was really bad, but after that fight, Ledo has not caused an injury since.
I think Moe and Murphy are establishing their pecking order and need to be given some time. After Murphy realizes that Moe is boss, Moe likely won't hurt him anymore and will just chase him. If that idea doesn't work, it is best to separate them, and put them each with their own girls.
If any injuries happen in the meantime, apply bluekote on the site. As for around the face area, get a warm damp washcloth and gently get the dried blood off of Murphy's eyes.
If more injuries occur, separate them so that no more harm is done.
Or, just give them a little time and see if they work it out on their own.
If they are best friends, I doubt they truly want to hurt each other, but rather tell the other one who is boss. Once Moe tells Murphy who is boss, they might stop wounding each other.

I'm not positive what your setup exactly looks like, but possibly splitting their coop/run in two might work.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

Are you familiar with the natural life cycle of Red Junglefowl? In nature it's one mature male with several or more females. When the young males hit puberty they leave the flock or the broodcock will kill them.
The young males then exist on the far periphery of the main flock until they mature enough to the point where they can challenge the broodcock. Then they either defeat him and take his throne, driving him away to die, or they're again banished

When you make an all-male flock you're artificially simulating a flock of immature outcasts. It can't be good for their health

I would recommend limiting yourself to only keeping the amount of roosters that can live happy and natural lives. This is one of the instances where I think death would be more merciful than life

 

[EdnaAndEdith]

It sounds like you care about your babes so much
I have 2 roos that fight a ton, but it's more like the other gets on the other one more.
One time Benny, the one who was getting attacked, got a chunk taken out of his comb from our other rooster Ledo. It was really bad, but after that fight, Ledo has not caused an injury since.
I think Moe and Murphy are establishing their pecking order and need to be given some time. After Murphy realizes that Moe is boss, Moe likely won't hurt him anymore and will just chase him. If that idea doesn't work, it is best to separate them, and put them each with their own girls.
If any injuries happen in the meantime, apply bluekote on the site. As for around the face area, get a warm damp washcloth and gently get the dried blood off of Murphy's eyes.
If more injuries occur, separate them so that no more harm is done.
Or, just give them a little time and see if they work it out on their own.
If they are best friends, I doubt they truly want to hurt each other, but rather tell the other one who is boss. Once Moe tells Murphy who is boss, they might stop wounding each other.

I'm not positive what your setup exactly looks like, but possibly splitting their coop/run in two might work.

Thank you for your comments!

My husband was talking about putting a wire division through the center of the barn if they do continue to fight. I agree about the establishing pecking order thing.

Right now it seems there is peace in the land again and I’m hoping it stays that way. I’m going to give them a bit more time together. I think Moe is just extremely assertive and while he is more violent than it sounds like other roosters are (I think he gets so flared up from the fight that he doesn’t know when enough is enough). I am hoping that with all of the submissive communications I’ve seen from Murphy that things will settle down.

I do love my babies and I really hope they will be able to settle into bachelor life together. I really don’t want 3 completely separate flocks but I will if I have to!

 

[EdnaAndEdith]

Are you familiar with the natural life cycle of Red Junglefowl? In nature it's one mature male with several or more females. When the young males hit puberty they leave the flock or the broodcock will kill them.
The young males then exist on the far periphery of the main flock until they mature enough to the point where they can challenge the broodcock. Then they either defeat him and take his throne, driving him away to die, or they're again banished

When you make an all-male flock you're artificially simulating a flock of immature outcasts. It can't be good for their health

I would recommend limiting yourself to only keeping the amount of roosters that can live happy and natural lives. This is one of the instances where I think death would be more merciful than life

I appreciate your alternative viewpoint. Thank you for sharing.

I would like to suggest that while those “outcasts” are growing and developing in their own group (away from hens) they form brotherhoods and bonds with each other in the same way that any other flock creature does. They establish their own “top rooster” and it is that male that challenges the head of the brood. The rest of the males are surviving in the company of other males that they bond with.

It isn’t unusual for animals of other flock varieties to form social groups outside of the main group and remain quite content not being “on top”. Understandably, they would compete for an opportunity to have their own flock, but if any awareness of the availability of hens is out of their perception, there would be nothing to compete over except flock position (which has been clearly established now). I believe my error was not having a visual barrier to the pasture where the females were. Which instantly added “something to fight for” on the first sunny afternoon of the year when the girls wandered too far. I have temporarily remedied that problem and have a permanent solution on order.

We do have to recognize and appreciate the uniqueness of this situation, based on my observation of the two boys in question (even after this fight), they seem happier together than they do apart and enjoy one another’s company. I’m a registered veterinary technician and have worked in the veterinary world for over 11 years. I’ve personally humanely euthanized thousands of all kinds of creatures. Certainly there is a time and a place for that. But we also owe it to them to read their own body language and determine the individual quality of life. When I see the boys snuggled up together at bed time or feeding each other treats back and forth or dust bathing together or simply enjoying each others company, I find it hard to base my end of life decisions on “ancestors” habits. They have some of their ancestors traits, we can’t argue that. But they are individuals as well. Much in the way that I am similar to my mother, and my grandmother, but I am neither of them and what makes me happy is very different from what makes my mother or grandmother happy.

I feel I owe it to these boys to try to rectify the environmental influences and restore them to their level of harmony in their own way. Even if it is “unnatural”. If the fights continue and there is no hope for peace, then I would build more space and put them into individual flocks. But keep in mind, adding addition flock members increases the risk involved: more lives to care for, more vet bills, more chance of getting yet another rooster complicating things, more eggs to process and deal with, increased risk of disease. I believe it is more responsible for me to make things work with the flock I have first.

Again, I really do appreciate your insights. This is how we all learn from each other and why we ask for each other’s view points. Different perspectives can help us grow to appreciate the species and the unique needs they have.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

It isn’t unusual for animals of other flock varieties to form social groups outside of the main group and remain quite content not being “on top”. Understandably, they would compete for an opportunity to have their own flock, but if any awareness of the availability of hens is out of their perception, there would be nothing to compete over except flock position (which has been clearly established now). I believe my error was not having a visual barrier to the pasture where the females were. Which instantly added “something to fight for” on the first sunny afternoon of the year when the girls wandered too far. I have temporarily remedied that problem and have a permanent solution on order.

Human males do the same in prison. The only question I raise is whether it's ethical or not to keep animals in the equivalent of a human prison

Humans commit crimes before they're sentenced to do time in a box, with other males, away from the vision of females. This is universally understood as a punishment for commiting evil

 

[EdnaAndEdith]

Human males do the same in prison. The only question I raise is whether it's ethical or not to keep animals in the equivalent of a human prison

Humans commit crimes before they're sentenced to do time in a box, with other males, away from the vision of females. This is universally understood as a punishment for commiting evil

In your example above, what “evil” did the young roosters commit in order to be outcast in the first place? Your example above is a natural environment without prisons or boxes.

There are many celibate people who live perfectly happy lives. I don’t see this as unethical as long as the being is content with their life the way it is.

Prisoners would probably argue that living in prison is better than death… after all, there are TVs and tablets and games and companions and at least some forms of happiness in their life.

Plus, the roosters are not in “jail”. The only form of life enjoyment they are missing out on is reproduction. They have every other opportunity to express their needs and desires in a very natural way.

There are plenty of female only flocks in the world that many would agree are perfectly happy without a rooster around at all.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

There are many celibate people who live perfectly happy lives. I don’t see this as unethical as long as the being is content with their life the way it is.
...
There are plenty of female only flocks in the world that many would agree are perfectly happy without a rooster around at all.

I've only ever been without a rooster for a period of two months. I had sold my old broodcock and replaced him with a young cockerel that hadn't begun to mate or crow yet

The very next day there was a random white Leghorn in the middle of my property wooing the females. He had travelled though hundreds of feet of dense, dangerous swampland to find the females where he knew a mature male was now absent. It took hours for me to capture the Leghorn, but thanks to his color I was able to eventually catch him, which is actually the exact reason I don't keep white chickens. Much higher rates of predation

Anyways, after removing the Leghorn from my property over the next month I had a handful of females leave, again traversing through hundreds of feet of dense swampland filled with predators, to join the neighboring flock that does have roosters

So I have direct personal evidence that chickens both male and female will risk their lives and travel quite far to find mates

Prisoners would probably argue that living in prison is better than death… after all, there are TVs and tablets and games and companions and at least some forms of happiness in their life.

Plus, the roosters are not in “jail”. The only form of life enjoyment they are missing out on is reproduction. They have every other opportunity to express their needs and desires in a very natural way.

One could say the exact same thing about human prisoners- "the only form of life enjoyment they are missing out on is reproduction. They have every other opportunity to express their needs and desires in a very natural way."

I would personally rather be dead than do a life sentence in prison, regardless of the presence or absence of females. However I suppose this is a personal decision for each individual

It's possible that your chickens can find happiness under such circumstances, but if they aren't happy I'm sure they'll express it through violence and other anti-social behaviors

Typically roosters fight quite ferociously over resources