Rooster with infected foot.

[Eggcessive]

I got this information from my local country avian vet who also works for the Agricultural Dept. here in New Mexico. He was the one that took the blood and did the blood work. This was a few years ago and I can not remember all of our conversations so long ago. But I do remember him saying that...Turkeys are more likely to contract MS than chickens and that rarely if ever, is the right foot joint or hock involved. That the left foot joints and hocks are the ones that become infected.

Now I do not know if this was from scientific studies or his own clinical findings. However it was because of this "symptom" of the left foot, that he was able to make the first initial diagnosis of my flock, as the several birds that did have the synovial issues associated with MS, (several others in the flock did not exhibit the swollen joints, but did have other symptoms associated with MS) all had the swelling in the left feet only. And of course the blood work came back positive that the entire flock had MS.

That is interesting. I have only treated bumblefoot, never MS, but do you find that a lot of MS cases present with swelling in the feet versus in the joints? I have a hard time trying to help people with lameness or limping in their chickens, since I have not seen it (MS.) There are a couple of good sites, but not a whole lot of practical experience. I enjoy others who have seen diseases to describe symptoms like you have.

 

[TwoCrows]

I can only account for my own flock. I didn't have any swelling in the hocks at that time...only the foot joints. I too have dealt with a lot of bumblefoot due to the lay of this land. Rocky, prickly and rough. I am very quick to spot bumblefoot because of this, so I have never encountered any bumblefoot that looked as bad as the OP's foot. That is why I did suggest the possibility of MS. BUT...I am sure bumblefoot can and does get that bad.

With my case here, I had a lot of sick chickens. But what really drove me to seek a vet's advice was the fact after treating one case of bumblefoot for 3 months straight, and it refused to heal, I knew something else must be going on.

So I would think that if a person has a bird with bumblefoot that they have been treating for months on end, that doesn't heal and swells up in the foot joint with a LOT of heat in the joint, I would imagine that it is very possible they are dealing with MS and not a simple case of bumblefoot.

Only one of my birds with the swollen joints actually had what was thought to be bumblefoot, as the fluid leaks into the foot pad from the joint. The spot on the pad that became infected could have formed from the fluid itself in the pad or possibly the bird had a puncture at the same time, contracting MS from the ground. I do not know which came first. And none of the other birds had bumblefoot.

And yes, lameness can be difficult to diagnose. And unfortunately MS does need blood work to confirm.

 

[dawg53]

When I saw the first pic, I knew it was either MS or gout. Gout would mostly affect both feet and legs at the joints. Staph infection from bumblefoot wouldve already killed the rooster. I'm with TwoCrows on this...MS. Here's a pic from the Merck Vet Manual; notice the swollen left foot, and the right foot appears normal except for the swollen hock:

 

[dawg53]

BTW TwoCrows, I remember responding to your post a year or two ago about this very same thing that was going on with your birds.

 

[TwoCrows]

When I saw the first pic, I knew it was either MS or gout. Gout would mostly affect both feet and legs at the joints. Staph infection from bumblefoot wouldve already killed the rooster. I'm with TwoCrows on this...MS. Here's a pic from the Merck Vet Manual; notice the swollen left foot, and the right foot appears normal except for the swollen hock:

Good job Dawg! The swelling on the right hock is most likely due to the bird laying on their hocks. That is what MS birds do when severely affected. They crawl and lay around on their hocks because they can't stand. So that right hock is probably over stressed and inflammed.

 

[dawg53]

I know what you treated your birds with TwoCrows. Also denagard effectively treats MG/MS in chickens, it's an ongoing monthly treatment.

 

[TwoCrows]

BTW TwoCrows, I remember responding to your post a year or two ago about this very same thing that was going on with your birds.

Many people told me to cull these birds. But I decided to make it one big learning experience. Of course at the expense of my flock! LOL BUT....I pulled every one of these birds thru it, I moved them to new ground, and I believe that I must may have destroyed the bacteria. Maybe, although blood work would need to be done. BUT...these birds have absolutely no signs or symptoms of MS and are so incredibly healthy. Just bursting with life and energy. I am sure they are all grateful that I did not cull them. AND I learned more than I can tell you about bacterias, antibiotics, how they work in the body, from the HUNDREDS of surgeries on feet, the weeks of injections, how to heal bumblefoot, how to keep birds alive on the brink of death, LOL, and just how chickens function in general. I would never turn the clocks back and wished I had never had an MS outbreak in my flock. I am so much wiser for it.

 

[TwoCrows]

I know what you treated your birds with TwoCrows. Also denagard effectively treats MG/MS in chickens, it's an ongoing monthly treatment.

And yes, MS requires months of treatment. Took me about 3 months of antibiotics either being injected or shoved down throats. It is a very persistent bacteria that many times can not be destroyed.

 

[dawg53]

Quote: Personally I wouldve culled my birds if they had MG or MS, much like any other respiratory disease. It would be too time consuming and too much money spent treating them. Besides, they would be carriers for life. The good thing is that both MG and MS are very fragile in the environment, mycoplasmas lack a cell wall. At most, they can survive only about 3 days outside the host, unlike other respiratory diseases which can survive in the environment for much longer periods of time.

 

[TwoCrows]

Quote: Personally I wouldve culled my birds if they had MG or MS, much like any other respiratory disease. It would be too time consuming and too much money spent treating them. Besides, they would be carriers for life. The good thing is that both MG and MS are very fragile in the environment, mycoplasmas lack a cell wall. At most, they can survive only about 3 days outside the host, unlike other respiratory diseases which can survive in the environment for much longer periods of time.
This was a highly expensive ordeal over all. Baytril is not cheap!!! But I am the kind of person that needs to learn as much about something as possible. Yes, I would have learned early on how to chop the heads of all these birds. LOL But possibly curing them offered me more learning opportunities. So I ran with that.

And yes, I was told that as soon as I got this "thing" under control, moving them off the ground they were on might arrest the bacteria and what little might be left in the bird could possibly destroyed.

MS is a very sneaky bacteria. It hides itself in healthy cells within the body so that the immune system cannot detect it until it over takes the entire body. So it is spreading rapidly to organs and tissues and the body doesn't even know it is there. And most antibacterial drugs won't even touch MS bacteria. The ones we have already gone over are about all that will work. Before I had this diagnosed, and what with all the sick birds I had on my hands, I tried several other antibacterial drugs only to have this MS get even worse. And if it wasn't for this vet and all his great advice, I might have lost them all.

The work involved was extensive as well. Every morning at the crack of dawn before work, I was up and basically doing a bumblefoot surgery on the birds with swollen joints, draining the synovial fluid from the foot pads. It was a bloody nightmare to say the least, LOL, but I came up with some creative ways to keep the infection down in the pads AND the birds never got so lame they couldn't stand or walk. They limped, but they stood, they walked and even ran with a limp.

I was quite grateful when it was all over. The birds looked very rough, scraggly and tired. It took about a year to get them all healthy, to the state that I would consider healthy. Far too much work for keeping a small flock such as I do. So I do not highly recommend what I have done. But I just NEED to know as much as I can about these birds. The learning will never stop until they are no longer with me.