Rooster with mass in neck, possible tumor, thymus response -- Marek's

[Nambroth]

I second Bitterroot's post earlier, Trousers' illness has definitely raised my education levels around this disease, but as you pointed out, Nambroth, the world is full of sharp edges. It's just hard to fight a sharp edge that you can't see and against which you seem to have few weapons.

I am a little puzzled that your veterinarian didn't test for Marek's from the beginning, whereas you, Nambroth, raised the possibility very early on when Trousers first became unwell. Did your vet discuss this with you as a possibility? I ask this because some of us would have a high dependence on a medical opinion - but then, perhaps it just goes back to education. Everybody needs to attend Chicken School with no graduation.

Maybe I can explain.
Sunday, Trousers seemed to be acting a little out of sorts. I found a small mass in his neck, which I incorrectly interpreted as being in his crop.
Monday we took him to the vet. She aspirated the mass with a needle onto a slide and examined it, but it was unclear of what the problem might be. Because he was showing no other signs, and she has seen non-Marek's tumors in chickens before, we did not explore Marek's in-depth. We left him overnight for surgery while they fasted him and ran simple blood tests to make sure he could handle the surgery okay.
Tuesday he had surgery and Tuesday night he seemed to recover. He was suddenly eating and drinking well, and acting very happy.
Wednesday he suddenly had no use of his legs and stopped eating and drinking. Hoping that it was complications from the anestesia we gave him overnight because he was otherwise seemingly okay. It was only Wednesday, when he developed the 'paralysis', that when I talked to my vet she suggested Marek's (and some really unfortunate timing). I had only thought of it that day, myself.
Thursday he went downhill, and Friday we took him back to the vet, discussed Marek's seriously, and got a result on his pathology report on the tumor (lymphoma). The facility that runs pathology on tumors does NOT test for Marek's!
Friday my vet took a blood draw to test for Marek's. This is not something that can be tested for in house and must be sent away to be tested.
Friday is when he was put to sleep after being given a fatal prognosis, and the vet did the necropsy that night. The necropsy supported Marek's but it cannot confirm it without a test.
Saturday and Sunday were weekend days and the blood samples could not be sent out.
Monday the blood was sent out-- the earliest possible day after we suspected Marek's.

The blood test took a week to come back as positive.

So, even if we had drawn blood at his first vet visit, and sent it away for testing (even though he had no real symptoms yet), it still would not have come back until Friday, the day we had to have him put to sleep, at the earliest.

 

[Nambroth]

By the way, DNA testing for these viruses is "fairly" new, as even my vet was surprised when she called the lab. Many vets may not know this is an option. If you are facing this possibility and wish to get a LIVE bird tested, please ask you vet to ask the lab if they do it. We had to send away to GA state to have it done.

Obviously the tumors and such can only be investigated post mortem, if they are present.

 

[SoftBoiled]

Thank you Nambroth, the lack of other symptoms would have made the issue more difficult to pin down

 

[Nambroth]

Thank you Nambroth, the lack of other symptoms would have made the issue more difficult to pin down

No problem, I thought a rundown of how it happened in one spot might be easier! If we had thought it might be Marek's on his first visit I would have talked to her about doing the test then, though it wouldn't have helped him any, sadly. The more I learn about Marek's the more it seems that it can present in many ways and a lot of cases are not at all "textbook" until after the bird passes and a look inside can be made.

It does make you wonder how many people have it and don't even realize!

 

[kitmarlowescot2]

Sorry to hear that Trousers tested positive for Marek's and LL. Have you contacted the lady you got him from to let her know that he tested positive for it, and that her flock needs to be a closed flock as well, otherwise people who buy her chickens could lose them and their flocks ot Marek's and LL ? And for her to contact other people who got Trouser's brothers so they know ahead of the time their own roosters probably have Marek's and LL as well.

 

[Nambroth]

Sorry to hear that Trousers tested positive for Marek's and LL. Have you contacted the lady you got him from to let her know that he tested positive for it, and that her flock needs to be a closed flock as well, otherwise people who buy her chickens could lose them and their flocks ot Marek's and LL ? And for her to contact other people who got Trouser's brothers so they know ahead of the time their own roosters probably have Marek's and LL as well.

Yes, we have been in close communication. She is taking this seriously as well.

 

[canesisters]

I'm sure this was already covered somewhere - but can adult birds be vaccinated or is it only chicks?

I got my first chicks from a swap and I have NO idea if any of them were vaccinated or not. I'm bringing home 2 adult hens on Tuesday (tomorrow) from a neighbor's house. They will go into isolation for a month, but if they were vaccinated - from what I've gathered - there is a possibility that they could they give my flock mareks???

 

[Nambroth]

I'm sure this was already covered somewhere - but can adult birds be vaccinated or is it only chicks?

I got my first chicks from a swap and I have NO idea if any of them were vaccinated or not. I'm bringing home 2 adult hens on Tuesday (tomorrow) from a neighbor's house. They will go into isolation for a month, but if they were vaccinated - from what I've gathered - there is a possibility that they could they give my flock mareks???

Okay, so there is more than one strain of Marek's virus, and they do not all act predictably. In general though:

Marek's Vaccines are not usually effective unless given to day old chicks. The window seems to close at around 36 hours old. The idea is that the vaccine helps the chicks build a resistance, which will then later develop into an immunity (or not, sadly, in a few cases). The vaccine does NOT make birds shed the virus!! Again, the simple act of vaccinating a chick does NOT mean it will shed the virus. But, if a bird is vaccinated and then comes in contact with Marek's virus, it will carry the virus and shed it (though probably shed less of it). That means that if you have vaccinated birds (as day old chicks) that have been exposed to Marek's, they might not ever show any signs and will be healthy, but they could be shedding the virus the whole time and un-vaccinated/non-immune birds could pick it up from them.

There is a little controversy over giving the vaccine after 36 hours old. For the most part though it's accepted that it's really not likely to help at all because of the way a chicken builds their immune system when they are baby chicks. Would it hurt? Probably not, but don't ever mistake the fact that the birds you bring in could carry Marek's and vaccinating them now is unlikely to change that.

In short: It does not matter if a chicken was properly vaccinated or not-- if it has been exposed to Marek's virus it can carry and shed it, and is a risk to birds that have not been vaccinated. Being vaccinated (properly, before 36 hours old), and building an immunity seems to mean that if they are exposed they shed less virus, but they can still infect other birds.

To further complicate this, is I have come to understand that not every vaccine is effective against every virus strain. Some hatcheries use a mix of three different vaccines because of this, it seems. There is still a lot to learn.

Does this help?

 

[Bitterroot]

Found this article last night as I was digging through my back issues of backyard poultry. Great that articles are online, too!

http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/i...cinate_poultry_chicks_for_mareks_disease.html

I'll be using that method to vaccinate chicks.

I also read in another article that if you've got turkeys, "salting" your chicken's feed with turkey droppings can help the chickens develop an immunity to the disease. Darned if I can find some online info on it, though.

 

[canesisters]

Yes, that answers my question.

So, since I did not know enough to ask about vaccinations when I got those first chicks, I now have to take the risk of loosing loved pet birds any time that I bring other birds into my flock. Or stick with only these 6 until they are gone.

Until just now, I could never understand why backyard pet chicken owners would order more chicks than they actually wanted from a hatchery - and pay the high shipping costs. I have always said that it was better to get just a few each year from local breeders (swap). I still say that local breeders are a better option, but now I'm armed with more information & questions to ask to be better prepared.