Rooster with mass in neck, possible tumor, thymus response -- Marek's

[froggiesheins]

Very sad news today. Although his life was short, Trousers was able to enjoy it fully because of the considerate and loving care that you provided for him and all your pets. In this way he was lucky; not all are as fortunate. He was a gentle and noble soul. Thank you for sharing his story, and I hope the coming days bring you peace.

X's 2

 

[Nambroth]

Here's the post about him in the Derp thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/563302/derperella-the-weird-faverolles-friends/2570#post_10699839

I will post more to this thread once I learn more about the test results. It is my hope that my experiences can help someone else if they find this thread later on. I know that searching for threads here in BYC has helped me so much in the past, and it's the least I can do to try and help others in the same way.

I know not everyone can afford to do what we did for Trousers, nor does everyone have an avian vet within a driving distance (2 hours one way is pretty far for us). The only we we were able to do it is because I always stash a little money every year into savings, just for vet fees. We don't have human children, so I spend all that I am able on keeping our pets around for as long as we can. All of that said, I do think it's wise to save a little money, as you are able, to test and get a necropsy done if you ever lose a bird in an unexplainable way, because doing so might not only help save the rest of your flock, but protect others in the future if it is a communicable pathogen. The power of knowledge is immense when it comes to disease, and will help you make informed decisions.

 

[cluckcluckluke]

Nambroth, I wish everyone thought like you. There are many who would not think or even take the time to think about the whole communicable pathogen side to this, thus making everyone elses flock susceptible to your flock's illness ( not your flock in peticular ).

I'm glad you think about others as well as yourself. I said it before but Trousers was the best rooster, I'm glad you got to spend as much time as you did with him.
Keep well.
CluckCluckLuke.

 

[shadow rabbit10]

Hello all,

Thank you for your words.

My vet called me today even though she was very busy, bless her, to discuss what she found in the necropsy. Trousers had a large tumor on his heart that had grown into the muscle wall and the ventricle (I regret I forget which side she said, I think right). His lungs were clear so she thinks that this was causing his increased breathing distress, because the heart was still pumping and sounded properly but literally could not distribute his blood properly. He also had advanced and large tumor masses on his liver and spleen. His fist stomach (gizzard) inner walls were abnormal. She said that the nerve clusters and bundles (sciatic nerves) seemed normal to slightly enlarged, though she could not tell how much without comparison as he was a larger chicken (he was huge) than she was used to seeing. She documented them with photographs and took samples for further pathology, because it is often the sciatic nerves that are effected in Marek's disease. Right now, everything is pointing to "maybe Marek's" but we won't know for sure until we send away for lab testing, which will be done next week. My vet is leaning toward it, however. There are a few other avian retroviruses that can cause the symptoms seen here and we will explore them as possibilities if testing comes back as negative for Marek's.

I am exploring possible methods for disease to have been introduced. My flock initially all came from a hatchery as day old chickens, (vaccinated against Marek's). Trousers was introduced after I placed him in a 40-day quarantine in late November, he came from a flock that has suffered no losses/known disease (and continues to be healthy, I have been in touch with her). He was not vaccinated. She hatched him under a broody from eggs purchased from a breeder, but I understand that Marek's cannot be passed vertically. I have not visited the grounds of anyone else with chickens and have always taken biological control seriously. It is hard to know the origin of the virus if indeed that is what it is. It seems that it can be blown in on the wind from miles away? Time will further educate us.

It is my understanding that day-old chicks are inoculated with a turkey retrovirus, is this correct? And that my current hens would not shed the virus because they were vaccinated, but would only shed the virus if they were later exposed to the virus and developed immunity (and thus shed the virus without symptoms)?
I understand if it is Marek's that I can never introduce another non-vaccinated bird to my yard, and that I can never adopt any of my birds out.

I have read somewhere that if you put a non vaccinated bird with vaccinated ones, you run the risk of passing the disease because it is inside the birds already. It is a small chance, but possible. That is why I didn't get my birds vaccinated. First, only the large fowl could (making them a threat to the non vaccinated bantams) and if I wanted new birds, I couldn't mix the flock. Well, I could have, but there would be a risk.

 

[artsyrobin]

worst case scenerio- couldn't any outside bird being brought in be vacinated? if that is the case?

 

[shadow rabbit10]

If it is young enough, but after about a week (i think) the vaccination doesn't work as well.

 

[Nambroth]

I have read somewhere that if you put a non vaccinated bird with vaccinated ones, you run the risk of passing the disease because it is inside the birds already. It is a small chance, but possible. That is why I didn't get my birds vaccinated. First, only the large fowl could (making them a threat to the non vaccinated bantams) and if I wanted new birds, I couldn't mix the flock. Well, I could have, but there would be a risk.

I have read that this is false; that the current vaccine is based on turkey virus and that the vaccine alone does not make chickens shed the virus. I will consult with an expert before proceeding though!

worst case scenerio- couldn't any outside bird being brought in be vacinated? if that is the case?

No, the vaccine must be administered before the chick is 36 hours old because of how their immune system works, based on my research.

 

[featherz]

Peter Brown (the chicken doctor) did a series on this - you can probably get it on the chicken whisperer podcast - in most cases the vaccine is a turkey herpes virus and does NOT spread to unvaccinated birds.

 

[shadow rabbit10]

I have read that this is false; that the current vaccine is based on turkey virus and that the vaccine alone does not make chickens shed the virus. I will consult with an expert before proceeding though!

Thanks for clarifying. Someone told me this when I asked about vaccinating, and I believed it.

 

[Nambroth]

Thanks for clarifying. Someone told me this when I asked about vaccinating, and I believed it.

No problem. Though to further expand on this-- even though vaccinated birds do NOT shed a communicable version of the Marek's virus* (a herpes virus as mentioned above), if the birds later become exposed to Marek's (chicken version, if you will), they may never show signs (which is good for them, it means they have built an immunity) but will shed active chicken Marek's virus. Research indicates that they shed much LESS virus than an non-vaccinated bird, but it is still present. This is what I am scared might have happened with Trousers. For this to have happened, Marek's must have come in from the environment, because I am always super careful about biosecurity.

There seems to be a lot of confusing information out there on this disease, which makes it harder for owners to make educated decisions. I was previously misinformed, myself, so it can happen. I am drawing my current information from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/203602.htm and other scientific resources.

* -- Unless you keep turkeys!!