Run planning - how high does hardware cloth need to go?

[aart]

I may have been mis-calling the panels. When I started looking at gardening archways people spoke about cattle panels.

They are called livestock panels, in general.
Cattle, hog, horse, and others have varying sizes and spacing of rods.
Go to Tractor Supply's website, they have pretty good illustrations showing the spacing.

 

[jewelg]

The only ones available here as "cattle panels" have big enough openings the chickens (even my big ones) can step through easily.
I found the ones in the picture interesting and rather liked the size of those openings much more than the cattle panels I used on my hoop run.

Rabbit wire and cage wire both have bigger openings.....1"x1/2" or something like that. Sometimes I see it on sale for less than hardware cloth. It is a heavier gauge too.

I just took a peek at your gallery - talk about the intersection of gardening and chickening! Your PVC hoops look great! And I can see how they can both keep chickens out of your beds when they're free-ranging, and keep them in temporarily when you want them to turn the earth. Could you post a photo of your permanent hoop house from further back? The one attached to your chicken coop as the permanent run?

 

[jewelg]

Rabbit wire comes in rolls like hardware cloth, but is strong enough you can make a rabbit cage with no support other than the wire--just clip it together at the edges. It's usually got holes 1 x 2 inches (sides and top of cage, 14 gauge) or 1/2 by 1 inch (floor of cage, 14 or 16 gauge.)

Hardware cloth is often 19 gauge or something even lighter. (Wire gauge: bigger number means smaller/skinnier wire.)

With hardware cloth, you sometimes need a layer of stronger wire too, because big dogs can rip the hardware cloth apart. But the small holes of hardware cloth are needed to keep out rats, raccoon hands, weasels, and so forth. It really depends on what predators are in your area.

Nat, thank you. With the rabbit wire, I would imagine you'd have to build a sturdy frame to go under it if you were making a larger run. Would you agree? As I understand it, the 16 ft livestock panels will bend into an archway and hold up with minimal framing. You have to have a sturdy base for them, and frame out a doorway, but don't have to add a top beam, for instance. Would you need to build the rabbit wire onto a frame for it hold it's shape?

 

[21hens-incharge]

Right? My partner is 6'2" and while I'll be the one mostly taking care of the chickens, he can at least comfortable be in the run if we make it tall.

We're in Mid-City, so over near Washington and La Brea. With the shade cloth, what's your suspension system? Did you set it up with whatever it comes with, or did you make your own set up? I just looked at your profile, but didn't see any photos of your coop with your shade set up. Could you add some? Or are they on here somewhere and I missed them?

I just took a peek at your gallery - talk about the intersection of gardening and chickening! Your PVC hoops look great! And I can see how they can both keep chickens out of your beds when they're free-ranging, and keep them in temporarily when you want them to turn the earth. Could you post a photo of your permanent hoop house from further back? The one attached to your chicken coop as the permanent run?

I did lose a ton of pics in the last upgrade BYC did.

My hoop run and coop it is attached to.

Plastic installed for winter protection.

Shade cloth on for summer. This reminds me to run out and add a second layer for added depth of shade.

This past November. We had 2+' of snow.

I use clips from greenhousemegastore.com.
https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/snap-clamps-sn--sc
When I bought mine they had 4 sticks really cheap. I am bummed they went to precut.
They do have ones for EMT in sticks still. It may be something to think about if going that route.
I zip tied 1/2" pvc sticks to the cattle panels to keep my plastic off the wire and give a place to clip to.
It is tall enough my hubs at 6'3 can stand upright in it.

The PVC garden hoops are great to add netting to to keep flea beetles off the crops too. I would never trust them for structure in winter especially for a chicken run. Just way to flimsy.

Edited to add:
Yes I used chicken wire. I am in town and do have raccoons and fox.
I also have BIG dogs.
I lock the birds in the coops EVERY night. Then I double check when I take the dogs out at 10pm.

 

[NatJ]

Nat, thank you. With the rabbit wire, I would imagine you'd have to build a sturdy frame to go under it if you were making a larger run. Would you agree? As I understand it, the 16 ft livestock panels will bend into an archway and hold up with minimal framing. You have to have a sturdy base for them, and frame out a doorway, but don't have to add a top beam, for instance. Would you need to build the rabbit wire onto a frame for it hold it's shape?

For rabbit wire: it works fine for a cage 30" by 36" by 18" high, and you can hang that and put about 40 pounds of rabbits inside.

For a walk-in run, yes I think it would need additional framing, whether you use rabbit wire or hardware cloth. But you might be able to put the framing members farther apart with rabbit wire. And if you would have needed hardware cloth + welded wire, you might be able to use the rabbit wire alone (because it is welded wire.)

For the cattle panels, I have read that it's a good idea to run one beam along the center top, to help prevent collapses in heavy snow.

If you want minimal framing, I would probably choose cattle panels plus hardware cloth, assuming that the hardware cloth is cheaper than the rabbit wire.

Rabbit wire is superb for building rabbit cages, but I think there are usually better choices when building for chickens, unless you are building cages like rabbit cages (Better choices meaning cheaper and/or more convenient.)

 

[IamRainey]

And you drive out to Malibu Feed? Holy moly! At least it's a lovely drive along the coast.

It's tough to get decent pictures of my coop and run because it's in a small yard enclosed by chain link and surrounded by trees. That means it's tough to get a vantage point through the foliage and back far enough to get much in the viewfinder. But, that said, here's what I've got.

This is a section stretched out over my nesting boxes. The morning sun is shining on the roof/door of the boxes now but by the time it starts to get hot that spot will be protected by shade.

The shade cloth is secured to the eaves of the coop and run by washers and screws. On the free side it has plastic grommets designed for use with this material. The grommets snap on and then you can divide the threads with a screwdriver or an awl to create holes without compromising the integrity of the cloth.

I have a second section of shade cloth protecting a side that has no natural shade. It's not all that attractive but I stretched that out to a wall that my neighbor erected.

It's very dark there in the mornings (when I took these pix) but by midday that overhang makes a huge difference in the temperatures.

The eaves of my coop are up at about 9' so I can still pass under that shade cloth tunnel if I want to but there isn't much going on on that side.

[I am able to have my coop that close to the property line because we have big backyards and my neighbor's house is still 100' away from the coop.]

The other 2 sides of the chicken yard are shaded by large trees and don't need additional shade.

If you don't have structures to employ to stretch out your shade cloth you could plant some sturdy poles or a trellis or 2 for support.

Hey! If you're not aware of them, can I suggest you check out Agoura Feed. It's closer than Tractor Supply and he's an independent businessman -- as are the nice folks at Malibu Feed. He sells things like oyster shell and grit in much larger and more economical sizes than the 5# bags that are typical at feed stores. If I remember correctly Malibu Feed sells the small expensive bags too. [I haven't used them in a long time because the traffic pattern at the coast makes it easy enough to get across Topanga but just about impossible to get back to the Valley without driving on to Kanan Dune.]

 

[jewelg]

Hey! If you're not aware of them, can I suggest you check out Agoura Feed. It's closer than Tractor Supply and he's an independent businessman -- as are the nice folks at Malibu Feed. He sells things like oyster shell and grit in much larger and more economical sizes than the 5# bags that are typical at feed stores. If I remember correctly Malibu Feed sells the small expensive bags too. [I haven't used them in a long time because the traffic pattern at the coast makes it easy enough to get across Topanga but just about impossible to get back to the Valley without driving on to Kanan Dune.]

Thanks! I'm apprenticing with a beekeeper once a week and some of her larger yards are out in Malibu - that's the only reason I swing by Malibu Feed! I already happen to be out there 1-2 times a month. Super tip on Agoura Feed -thank you.

These pictures are great, and it's really nice to see a few different plans on here now, between your set up and 21hens-incharge. I have some ideas I can mis-and-match for our space and conditions. THANK YOU!

 

[jewelg]

I did lose a ton of pics in the last upgrade BYC did.

My hoop run and coop it is attached to.
View attachment 2236621
Plastic installed for winter protection.
View attachment 2236622
Shade cloth on for summer. This reminds me to run out and add a second layer for added depth of shade.

I use clips from greenhousemegastore.com.
https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/snap-clamps-sn--sc
When I bought mine they had 4 sticks really cheap. I am bummed they went to precut.
They do have ones for EMT in sticks still. It may be something to think about if going that route.
I zip tied 1/2" pvc sticks to the cattle panels to keep my plastic off the wire and give a place to clip to.
It is tall enough my hubs at 6'3 can stand upright in it.

The PVC garden hoops are great to add netting to to keep flea beetles off the crops too. I would never trust them for structure in winter especially for a chicken run. Just way to flimsy.

Edited to add:
Yes I used chicken wire. I am in town and do have raccoons and fox.
I also have BIG dogs.
I lock the birds in the coops EVERY night. Then I double check when I take the dogs out at 10pm.

These pictures are great, and it's really nice to see a few different plans on here now, between your set up and what IamRainey has going. I have some great ideas now that I can mix-and-match for our space and conditions. THANK YOU! That PVC set up for shade cloth is great - I could do that on the shady side to secure it and then hold the other end out on stakes at an angle to keep ventilation and stretch that shade opportunity a bit.

Did you hoop with a 16 ft panel? How wide across is it at the bottom? I see you're a chicken math enabler, and that is definitely not my strong point. What's the square footage of your hoop run, and the lenghtxwidthxheight?

 

[jewelg]

Just in general, a huge thank you to everyone writing in on this thread. It is so helpful to hear your ideas and to see the systems you have set up. As a new chick on the block, I can't thank you enough for your support and your willingness to share. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[21hens-incharge]

These pictures are great, and it's really nice to see a few different plans on here now, between your set up and what IamRainey has going. I have some great ideas now that I can mix-and-match for our space and conditions. THANK YOU! That PVC set up for shade cloth is great - I could do that on the shady side to secure it and then hold the other end out on stakes at an angle to keep ventilation and stretch that shade opportunity a bit.

Did you hoop with a 16 ft panel? How wide across is it at the bottom? I see you're a chicken math enabler, and that is definitely not my strong point. What's the square footage of your hoop run, and the lenghtxwidthxheight?

Thanks! The hoop run is 8x8 and about 6'6" tall. That makes it 64 square feet. I did use just 2 of the the 16' panels. Our ground slope is to steep to go a third and it would have blocked a gate.

My big run is 16x23. Yeah nuts! We put a solid roof on finally this year. Before that it was wire and I would zip tie the shade cloth.

The best things about the shade cloth are....
It does not catch the wind like a tarp.
Water does not pool on it.
It lasts a surprisingly long tine.

I bought mine at Lowes for $2 a linear foot by 6' wide. I have had the same pieces in use for over 7 years now. The only extra holes from the cutters when I had the zip ties to tight to easily remove for winter.

It is the same price still. I built this last weekend for the dogs and bought some to add to the top.