Russian Orloffs

[RedDrgn]

This is such a beautiful breed. I'm a bit bewildered though - with so many people having them - why are they on the 'critical' list in regard to endangerment?

Relatively speaking, I think very few people actually have them, and their gene pool is much smaller than many other breeds in this country. Personally, I'd love to add orloffs to my flock...in fact, when we were first looking start a flock all that I wanted were orloffs. But I couldn't find them. I still haven't and I'd rather not order from the few places that will ship since said places apparently have some breed conformancy issues (from what I've read).

 

[CluckyCharms]

Relatively speaking, I think very few people actually have them, and their gene pool is much smaller than many other breeds in this country. Personally, I'd love to add orloffs to my flock...in fact, when we were first looking start a flock all that I wanted were orloffs. But I couldn't find them. I still haven't and I'd rather not order from the few places that will ship since said places apparently have some breed conformancy issues (from what I've read).

Thanks!! I was reading some information after I posted, and apparently the 'bantam' variety is not on the critical list, but the large fowl is? That's all the info I was able to find. That and the APA no longer recognizes them - but I couldn't find a reason as to why. The ABA does - but only the bantam version, so the original large fowl are pretty much forgotten and thus 'critical'?? This is more a question than a statement, just trying to verify with other people what I've read (don't know if it is true).

Thank you again for the explanation! I do hope that one day you'll find some orloffs from a good gene pool. =)

 

[RedDrgn]

Thanks!! I was reading some information after I posted, and apparently the 'bantam' variety is not on the critical list, but the large fowl is? That's all the info I was able to find. That and the APA no longer recognizes them - but I couldn't find a reason as to why. The ABA does - but only the bantam version, so the original large fowl are pretty much forgotten and thus 'critical'?? This is more a question than a statement, just trying to verify with other people what I've read (don't know if it is true).

Thank you again for the explanation! I do hope that one day you'll find some orloffs from a good gene pool. =)

I don't know the answers to those questions, either. Maybe some day!

You're welcome and me too!

 

[kahlua]

I think the number of people with Orloffs on the forum is misleading - outside of the forum, they are really hard to find. Very few people are breeding them seriously. They are nearly impossible to find, unless you go with a hatchery. I did, because I wasn't willing to spend a fortune on hatching eggs when I was just starting out with them.
About half of my hatchery birds are pretty nice quality, IMO. Half I sold or culled. I am hoping to get some nicer stock next year.

 

[mississippifarmboy]

Quote: Ok, I might get crucified for this... but here's my take on the Orloffs.

First let me state that I love the breed, raise hundreds most every year, and have been working on them for years with both breeder and hatchery stock. I'm in no way knocking the breed or any breeder out there. I'm proud of my birds and what I've accomplished so far with them and I know the other breeders are just as proud of their stock. This is just one old farmer's opinion. I've only got a few minutes to post so don't have time to look up and quote the references, just posting from memory here.

The APA if I remember correctly dropped the Orloff (Russians) from the SOP in the early 1900's (I think it was 1905) for "lack of interest". It was never a very popular breed due to it's "mean, cruel and vindictive" look. It is very unlikely it will be re-admitted into a future SOP any time soon, but a few of us are working and hoping to get it there someday.

As for being "critical".. you have to remember that they are very rare in any form compared to other breeds and the winter numbers are what really counts. For example I have raised hundreds, maybe thousands over the years. But my winter flock is never more than 12 birds. That is the number you look at, not how many there are in the summer. My best guess knowing as I do how many winter birds myself and several other breeders keep is that in January each year, not counting hatchery birds, there is less than 100 breeder birds alive. The true number of QUALITY breeders alive in any given winter is probably closer to 50.

I know nothing about bantams, Orloffs or otherwise, just not my thing. I like big chickens.

In my opinion - and please note; this is just MY opinion... there are NO great, bred to the original SOP standard sized Orloffs IN THE USA today. Period. I am going by the original SOP description in this. There are a few breeders with good stock, some are getting closer every year, but over the years someone has pooped in the genetic gene pool.

My uncle used to have a flock of large fowl spangled Orloffs when I was a kid. He called them "Russians", but they were huge, massively built, beautiful birds with an upright stance reminiscent of a Malay or Shamo. I have never since seen one single bird that could measure up to those he had when I was a kid although my entire breeding program is geared towards getting back to that type bird.

ChrisF I think it is, once posted a picture of a cross he was working on that was as close as I've ever seen to the birds I remember as a kid. With a little searching you might could find it, or later I can PM him and ask him to post it here. I'm not sure if he's still working with that project or not, I haven't talked to him in a while, but it was a fine looking bird.

Again, I hope I haven't offended, and I hope that helps answer some of the questions.

Terry

 

[CluckyCharms]

I'm not offended in the least and I fail to see where I would be? lol Everyone has been super nice and very explanatory and willing to spend their time answering me - and telling me things I didn't know - and I greatly appreciate it! Thank you very much.

I really like the looks of these birds - but I don't know where 'vicious' comes into it, I think they look nice. heh

Thank you again for all the explanations and points of view - it's just what I was trying to get. =)

 

[NYREDS]

The Russians that were in the early Standards were not at all like the Spangled Russian Orloffs somtimes seen in shows today. The Russians were a black, rose-combed bird with dark slate shanks & a very different body type. They are, in short, two distinctly different birds.
I'm not sure exactly when the Russians were dropped from the Standard but it was before 1905. They are in my 1894 edition but not in my 1898 edition so it was in there somewhere.
As to their "critical" listing, both the ALBC & the SPPA rely on members self-reporting to determine population levels. There could, for arguements sake, be 20,000 flocks of Spangled Orloffs in the country but if only 3 of those flocks were owned by group members who responded to census questions they would be deemed to be "critical". I don't want to take anything away from either group as they do good work but their data gathering methods leave a lot to be desired.

 

[NYREDS]

In the background of the first pic are 2 of my EE's...in the second pic is one of my black ameraucanas. No one is laying yet, so they are all housed together. In the spring I am planning to separate them into breeding pens.

I do see what you mean about the duckfoot - is that something to cull for? Pink definitely has it - but she has the best personality by far. I could cull any of the others if needed but I'd want to keep her as a layer...




Brown seems okay??




I'll go through the rest to see if any others have it.

I am glad my cockerel is looking nice. When he was young he was super tall and gamey, so I was hopeful. He was the only cockerel that survived - I ordered 3, one died in shipping and the other of crossbeak.

Here he was as a chick - he always stood out from the rest!



And at maybe 8 weeks or so - he had lots of white, I hope some of it comes back!

Duck foot is a disqualification so, yes, duck footed birds should be culled.

 

[Pozees]

The Russians that were in the early Standards were not at all like the Spangled Russian Orloffs somtimes seen in shows today. The Russians were a black, rose-combed bird with dark slate shanks & a very different body type. They are, in short, two distinctly different birds.
I'm not sure exactly when the Russians were dropped from the Standard but it was before 1905. They are in my 1894 edition but not in my 1898 edition so it was in there somewhere.
As to their "critical" listing, both the ALBC & the SPPA rely on members self-reporting to determine population levels. There could, for arguements sake, be 20,000 flocks of Spangled Orloffs in the country but if only 3 of those flocks were owned by group members who responded to census questions they would be deemed to be "critical". I don't want to take anything away from either group as they do good work but their data gathering methods leave a lot to be desired.

You and MFB have made some important statements for anyone wishing to begin a breeding program. Is the preferred course to continue selecting the best known, or at least named, ROs, or to outcross to bring in missing traits like feather and shank color, size, and stance? I would think the former would take longer but have more reliable results, and in either case you would select one or two specific traits to work on with each breeding.

What you each describe as the original Russian or Russian Orloff sounds like a very substantial bird with darker feather and shank color than any of the pictures I've looked at so far. Is that how the standard read in 1894?

 

[Chris09]

The biggest problem that I see with most (80 to 90%) of the Orloffs I see on here is that they have poor type, I believe this holds true for birds that where at on time out crossed to the incorrect breed and now the breeders are fighting incorrect back and tail angle.

If you want to correct the type of the Orloff you are going to have to find good Malays and cross into them, there is a reason that the Orloff was at one time considered a Bearded Malay type Fowl and it is because the Orloff in fact looked very much a Malay with a Beard.

This is one of my crosses, he has improved type, size and feather over the average Orloff that you tend to see.




Chris