Russian Orloffs

[Sarplaninec]

I actually bred my Orloff Rooster with a French black copper marans hen. The result were extremely black chicks,lightly feathers on their legs with beards and almost no comb. Now I just wait to see the color of the eggs.

 

[Chris09]

I actually bred my Orloff Rooster with a French black copper marans hen. The result were extremely black chicks,lightly feathers on their legs with beards and almost no comb. Now I just wait to see the color of the eggs.

They should lay a light to medium brown egg.

Chris

 

[Pozees]

Chris, two questions and sorry if I sound ignorant - turns out I am LOL

1 - if crossing Black Asil over Spangled RO = mainly black offspring, what will subsequent generations (sibling, cockerel to dam, pullet to sire) produce? If Siblings produce 50% black and spangled, would crossing resulting black pullets back to original sire reinforce coloration black better than black pullet to black cockerel, or is another sibling mating preferable? This assumes one has acceptable offspring to move forward with, of course. If temperament goes completely out the window, it might be a failed experiment - which leads to my next question.

2 - other than selecting offspring for Orloff temperament, might one select the Black Asil sire based on his un-gameness but proper body type and color to reduce the number of chicks that must be removed from consideration for the next generation? Or is that a fool's errand?

 

[Chris09]

Chris, two questions and sorry if I sound ignorant - turns out I am LOL

1 - if crossing Black Asil over Spangled RO = mainly black offspring, what will subsequent generations (sibling, cockerel to dam, pullet to sire) produce? If Siblings produce 50% black and spangled, would crossing resulting black pullets back to original sire reinforce coloration black better than black pullet to black cockerel, or is another sibling mating preferable? This assumes one has acceptable offspring to move forward with, of course. If temperament goes completely out the window, it might be a failed experiment - which leads to my next question.

2 - other than selecting offspring for Orloff temperament, might one select the Black Asil sire based on his un-gameness but proper body type and color to reduce the number of chicks that must be removed from consideration for the next generation? Or is that a fool's errand?

Black Asil (A) over Spangled Orloff (B) = Black offspring (AB)

Black (AB) back crossed to Spangled Orloff (B) = Black offspring and Black Mottled offspring (ABB)
Black Asil (A) back crossed to Black (AB) Female = Black offspring with some having slight Mottling (AAB)

Pick the best Asil possible for your needs, temperament can be fixed with in the breeding program.

On a side note;
Watch using a Asil in the breeding program, the body type is much different than a Orloff should have and you could be adding more problems in the works.
A much better choice would me a Malay, or better yet if you can find one is a Bearded Malay.
The Malay will correct the type and size of the Orloff.

Chris

 

[Pozees]

Black Asil (A) over Spangled Orloff (B) = Black offspring (AB)

Black (AB) back crossed to Spangled Orloff (B) = Black offspring and Black Mottled offspring (ABB)
Black Asil (A) back crossed to Black (AB) Female = Black offspring with some having slight Mottling (AAB)

Pick the best Asil possible for your needs, temperament can be fixed with in the breeding program.

On a side note;
Watch using a Asil in the breeding program, the body type is much different than a Orloff should have and you could be adding more problems in the works.
A much better choice would me a Malay, or better yet if you can find one is a Bearded Malay.
The Malay will correct the type and size of the Orloff.

Chris

That was actually the first breed I thought of, as Malay is thought to be part of the Orloff foundation. Is it safe to assume the same temperament issues may arise? How difficult would it be to locate a black bearded Malay?

I am asking purely out of intellectual curiosity at this point, I love the Orloffs, but am far from being in any position to do anything about it. Down the road I would like to contribute to improvement of the breed, for now I am simply learning about it. Your knowledge is so helpful, thank you!

 

[ashandvine]

Thank you for the information. Great! I do know someone in the heritage thread crossed his back to Malay but I couldn't see the pics well. I thought that using the Asil would give me the beard without having to see out a bearded Malay. Would you mind clarifying for me what drawbacks you see to using an Asil? I am still trying to learn the basics between them. Wouldn't the beard in an Orloff be dominant without the Asil or Malay having to be? Or is it a matter of keeping the beard really full?

 

[Chris09]

Thank you for the information. Great! I do know someone in the heritage thread crossed his back to Malay but I couldn't see the pics well. I thought that using the Asil would give me the beard without having to see out a bearded Malay. Would you mind clarifying for me what drawbacks you see to using an Asil? I am still trying to learn the basics between them. Wouldn't the beard in an Orloff be dominant without the Asil or Malay having to be? Or is it a matter of keeping the beard really full?

Unless your going to use a bearded Asil (which most Asils ain't) I see no way that the Asil would benefit over a (Non-bearded) Malay.

Look at the body type of the three breeds (Orloffs, Malay and Asil), and compare there shape, head, tail carriage and stance.
The Russian Orloff is heavy in the Malay breed and also the Gilyan (another gamefowl breed). The Russian Orloff (Orlov/Orlovskia) in Germany is classified as a Malay and there type is very much as the Malay.

Here is a good wright on the both the Orloff (Orlovskia) and the Gilyan.

Orlovskia Breed

Orlovskia are clasified as Malays and are of Asian origin. It is a very old Russian breed and is known for about 200 years. The breed is named after a Russian Prince Chesmenskim Orlov. Concerning its origin people came to the conclusion that these bearded and mottled Orlovskia have been introduced from Persia. In Russia they were also known as -Persian Hens-. The predecessor of the Orlovskia was the Gilyan, another breed imported from Iran (Persia). The -Orlovskia- became very popular in the 19th century and the breed was widespread amongst breeders. Many fanciers liked the breed for its beautiful but unusual appearance, the good meat quality and last but not least being a very good egg-layer in wintertime. Under the Russian Czar the Orlovskia has been standarized and poultry societies have been founded in 1914.

Gilyan Breed
This old breed was already mentioned in Russian publications from 1700. It seems that the origin of the Gilyan sometimes referred to as -Ghilyany- is the Persian (Iranian) province Ghilyany. Some assume that it is also the -father- of the -Orlov- breed. The first name of the -Orlov- (see above) is clearly related with this breed. The Ghilan however does not show all the same breeding points like the rich plumage and beard. Also the color of the legs is different as the Ghilan has flesh coloured legs. The Ghilan has a walnut comb. The Gilyan (orlovski) breed at present is more used for ornamental purposes rather than for pit purposes. The breed already low in numbers survived due to the efforts of an enthusiastic group of Russian breeders from Pavlov, a city in the Nighegorodskoy area. This breed is classified as an -endangered- breed !

http://www.aseellovers.20m.com/custom4.html

Here are some pictures of Orloffs

Picture above from National Gamefowl League http://russiagame.tripod.com/russiaclub/orlov.htm

Picture above from Aseel Lovers http://www.aseellovers.20m.com/custom4.html


Chris​

 

[RiddleMe]

Thank you for the information.  Great!  I do know someone in the heritage thread crossed his back to Malay but I couldn't see the pics well.  I thought that using the Asil would give me the beard without having to see out a bearded Malay.  Would you mind clarifying for me what drawbacks you see to using an Asil?  I am still trying to learn the basics between them.  Wouldn't the beard in an Orloff be dominant without the Asil or Malay having to be?  Or is it a matter of keeping the beard really full?

Based on my past research wrt the beards in Ameraucanas, it is incomplete dominant and will show with one or two copies. So a cross to a non-bearded Malay would give you all bearded offspring, but only carrying one copy, so not as full of a beard. Then future breeding results would depend on if you crossed back to bearded or non-bearded parent, siblings, etc. If you are familiar with the BBS genetics, it's the same concept/percents, with BB (blue) equating to full beard, Bb (black) equating to thinner beard and bb (splash) equating to non-bearded. IF I remember correctly.

 

[ashandvine]

Both the above posts are great for information and I really appreciate them. The word/location 'Pavlov' came up in here and just today I was discussing with someone the Pavlovskaya and reading about more Russian breeds with a gal who spent some time in Russia. She still has contacts the re so between them I might find more interesting information like this. Love it!!
btw the Asil I have access to is bearded but again I am not sold. I just know that I want to look at all the options and try to make long term plans so I can slowly move in their direction. First I have to hatch out at least one generation here of just the Orloffs to see what I have and try to correct a few issues I have that just can not stay. Type is where I am at. Type over everything else.

 

[NCSprout]

Hi everybody, good t see such great discussion. Sorry I've been absent so much, but it seems I have a little time to play catch up.
First let me mention that the Mahogany gene acts similar to the Columbian gene in its ability to restrict black, this may account for some of the leakage coloration, as well, in the bird in question. It is a very interesting bird. Also, as far as Asil vs Malay...very and I really mean VERY few Malay in the US are up to standard for type. They are even harder to find than Orloffs. LOL. One thing I have learned working with the Oriental games is that (just like most fowl) the word pure is misleading. In the Old World birds you may very well find a Kulang Asil that can fit into our idea of a Malay. And there are Hmong breeders who raise what they may call a flat comb Thai or even Ganoi and it too may resemble a Malay. Many Malay in this country carry the head and girth, but may fall short on legs or have a flat back. There is a school of thought among long time breeders of Orientals that Malay are a derivative of Asil. This site, although a bit confusing in translation, has a wide assortment of photos of Malay and Asil: http://iranianaseel.rozblog.com/post/18 If you dig you will find information on the Persian gamefowl origins, which it is believed was used to create the Orloff. Mr. Falahi is very knowledgeable and is a good fellow to talk with concerning Orientals. If you decide to use an Asil with Orloffs try to steer away from the Reza type, which are the smaller type. I hope everyone is having a great start to the year.
Take care
Ivy