Russian Orloffs

[ashandvine]

I have been thinking about your comment about the RO and spangling... I am concerned that this kind of thought is what has led to the birds ornamental demise. Crossing them to the sussex for that spangling, or making the spangling a priority, is, IMO only, part of their downfall. I am not saying you are wrong to care about it. I do. I admire it, too, but I hope that others who are attending to their RO are considering how uniquely Orloff traits are more important than their color; type being foremost IMO. You have a good start on that for sure.
Regarding the cockerel being a lazy lover... I spoke with a woman who has kept RO for 5 years and she has had the same issue with hers until they turned about 2-2.5 and then she says they were mating everything. I wonder if they are slow to mature in this regard as well? Some hens/pullets are slower to mature and we know coloring takes time to develop so... maybe?

Where are all the keepers who have been at this for longer than me??

 

[desertmarcy]

I have been thinking about your comment about the RO and spangling... I am concerned that this kind of thought is what has led to the birds ornamental demise. Crossing them to the sussex for that spangling, or making the spangling a priority, is, IMO only, part of their downfall. I am not saying you are wrong to care about it. I do. I admire it, too, but I hope that others who are attending to their RO are considering how uniquely Orloff traits are more important than their color; type being foremost IMO. You have a good start on that for sure.
Regarding the cockerel being a lazy lover... I spoke with a woman who has kept RO for 5 years and she has had the same issue with hers until they turned about 2-2.5 and then she says they were mating everything. I wonder if they are slow to mature in this regard as well? Some hens/pullets are slower to mature and we know coloring takes time to develop so... maybe?

Where are all the keepers who have been at this for longer than me??

Ha Ha, we two seem to be dominating this thread right now. Well I am pretty sure the line from Rare Feathers Farm was not crossed to sussex. I have not seen Heather on this thread for a while, I'm sure she is busy with family, but it would be nice to hear from her. She has said her stock was combined from Curt Flannery and Erhard lines and that she was pretty sure the Erhard birds, imports from Germany, had no outcrossing since they arrived. The beauty of the birds and the fact that they are rare initially won them over to me, and then after having them, their personality keeps them here! That personality seems to be a dominant trait, too. I bred my two Ameraucana hens to the Orloff last year for some green eggers, kept 4 black and 4 blue pullets from those breedings, and those birds mob me just like the Orloffs, I'm tripping over them in the pen. Whereas the Ameraucana hens are somewhat standoff-ish.

I am not having any problems with my 1-year old Orloff male breeding. But he is in a smaller space with just two hens. I might try putting the older male in with just two hens and see what happens. Or maybe put him in a single pen and introduce the hens to him, one at a time, left him have each hen for 2 days then switch hens. Yes, I think that is what I should do. I only have 1 of my 4'x4' breeding/cockerel pens available right now, because they are all taken up by Black and Blue Copper Marans that I am single mating and want to identify eggs from each hen.

You can be assured that I am doing my best to breed to type as well as watching the color. I think I was fortunate to have had such a good start with these birds, especially since I knew very little about them when I first got my hatching eggs. They are such wonderful birds, I just wish I could learn to sex them a little sooner.

 

[ashandvine]

OH!! I just learned about Mr Erhard and can't wait to get eggs. I covet his flock... I know, bad. My latest high goals are to have three colors of RO here. Now if I could just convince the keepers of those cuckoo to share

Off to a bird meeting...

 

[ashandvine]

Alright, my fingers are burning from the cold but I took a few pictures to try to get those brow shots I was talking about.

Just going to post this one for now. Fingers hurting too much. See hen in the middle? Her brow is noticeably more narrow than the other two, but esp the hen on the right. (The left-most is a pullet who is shaping up nicely.) The one on the right is "Eagle" and I prefer her wide brow ridges that overhang her eyes. (everyone's muffs are wet from watering this morning. They do look a bit better on warm days.) I hope this is illustrates what I am referring to.

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Okay--I'll try to summarize what I can as I don't have time to read the 1400+ replies since my last post.

No, I have NEVER out-crossed to ANY other breeds when working with Orloffs. My original stock is Flannery and Erhard Weis. I have been breeding for a few years, so most of the original stock is gone and is now considered "my line." However, I do have somethings to say (through PM) about Erhard's stock...so if anyone is interested, shoot me a PM.

Out-crossing is not needed. Yes, the gene pool is shallow--but bringing in other breeds sets you back years and years. Sussex are completely wrong for the Orloff body type, not to mention combs, body color, pattern (spangling is different than speckling) leg color, attitude, etc.


I believe in "building the barn before you paint it." Basically, I work on body type, leg color, head, stance, etc FIRST and then worry about coloring. I do cull for color--too much white is MUCH, MUCH harder to breed out than white is to breed in. If a chicken is promising and shows a little too much white but is otherwise a good specimen, I DO keep those for breeding... although it might only be a few hatches or one or two years.

Look at this pullet--yes, she's a little too white, but look at her stance and body shape.

The same pullet the next winter (on the right)

Another thing to remember is that Orloffs generally get more white as the mature (with each molt). Therefore, a very young bird with solid white patches on their body, solid flight feathers, pure white heads, should be culled. If a bird has some solid flight feathers or some white in their tail but is otherwise a decent bird, I would wait on culling that one until a better one is created. I do have one hen that despite her age of almost three years, has NOT developed any more white. She doesn't have nearly enough but the fact that she is not LOSING it as she ages, made me keep her around.

One of the chicks from the first hatch, using the above hen (her beard is NOT black, it's just wet from drinking).


Keep in mind though, that if the bird does not show white, it's not going to get white later on. White spangling will become more pronounced and spangles may eventually run together, creating solid, white patches on the body (undesirable). This bird I did keep because she was otherwise pretty nice. She produced some nice chicks.

I have never had any issues with my roosters not performing their "roosterly duties"...although they DO take 9-12 months to reach full maturity. My only guesses are they are over-crowed (Orloffs need lots of room), or you might need to trim feathers around their vents to help with fertility. Hens take about that long to start laying as well and from my own experience, they will drop off dramatically in egg production by their third year and may only produce an egg or two a week. The younger hens, will usually produce an egg a day or close to 5 per week in their prime.

As far as weather--I live up in the mountains, near 3,000' elevation. This year, we had over 4 FEET of snow. We had weeks of BELOW zero temps and some days with 40-60 mph wind gusts. My LF Orloffs did stop laying but they would be the only breed (other than my bantam Orloffs) which would brave the weather and venture outside, even if it was just for a few minutes. They do not tolerate heat as well, though I have never lost any due to heat. We have long, hot, dry summers with temps well above 100 degrees for weeks on end. I do have a well-ventilated coop and I use fans when it gets that hot. So yes, I'm also breeding for vigor and hardiness.



When I started breeding LF Orloffs, I couldn't find anything other than the ABA Standard of Perfection on Orloff BANTAMS. So I spent years breeding my LF towards the bantam standard. I show both my bantams and LF in APA sanctioned events and they normally do quite well, although I can't ever win anything too important with my LF since they're not an accepted breed.

Here are some photos of my bantam Orloffs:





I do suggest joining Curtis Flannery's Orloff Club, the SPPA and the APA. Make friends, connections, have discussions, start showing (it's really not hard!) and get the breed accepted back into the APA. It would do wonders for Orloffs if more people were dedicated to breeding them towards a type and getting them back from the brink of extinction.

I also updated my website with more photos of my birds but I'll try to find some time in the next few weeks to get some more updated photos of my stock. I culled like crazy this fall and carried 23 LF birds into winter. I culled again down to 15 in early February and now I think I'm around 10....with two incubators full of a new line and my own eggs.

Here is the BANTAM standard....




I've been breeding these guys for a few years and a lot of my experience comes from just that--experience! It was a lot of trial and error...trying different things to see what worked and what didn't...I had very little help. When I first started out only ONE hatchery was carrying Orloffs and I didn't want to go that route. Eventually, I was able to get some stock and went from there. Ideal Hatchery's Orloffs are from Curtis Flannery, but they're not interested in breeding for type or color, just quantity. Sandhill breeds them as well and I have seen some of their birds and they're not too bad, as far as hatchery stock goes. Of course, if you're serious about breeding/showing/perserving, start out with a knowledgable breeder (who shows and is working on type) and avoid hatcheries.

Whew! I hope this helps?

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Alright, my fingers are burning from the cold but I took a few pictures to try to get those brow shots I was talking about.

Just going to post this one for now. Fingers hurting too much. See hen in the middle? Her brow is noticeably more narrow than the other two, but esp the hen on the right. (The left-most is a pullet who is shaping up nicely.) The one on the right is "Eagle" and I prefer her wide brow ridges that overhang her eyes. (everyone's muffs are wet from watering this morning. They do look a bit better on warm days.) I hope this is illustrates what I am referring to.

Yes the one in the middle does have a more narrow head...however, I wouldn't worry too much about the width of her head at this point. How is the rest of her body? Does she have too much black in her beard? Does she have a good overall shape? She looks like she's not showing any spangling on her back?

 

[ashandvine]

Her color is nice and deep and the spangling and her muffs are very good. (A quick affirmation that pics are sometimes deceiving). The thing about her, other than that head, that I don't like is her feet. She has a little duck foot. Eagle has the best posture/type but her legs are light and she does have a little too much white right now but not bad. She is nearly three years old, too. I find her to be laying fairly well. Not one a day but she isn't a hatchery bird either so I am totally fine with it. Between the four of them I get three eggs a day at present. Two are three years and two are less than one.

I have here a copy of the Russian Standard, an old one, for the RO and between that, some antique renderings and the German standard that's where I am going, not the bantam one we have here. I agree that type is important, thus my concern with heads. Talking with Mr Weis, who has certainly had them longer than you or me, he thinks that the older the hen the more their brow develops. I am not sure about this because of the age of the two hens I was comparing and esp with the inclusion of that pullet on the left. Either way the strong brow ridge is a characteristic of the breed that should be watched IMO.

Rarefeathers, I think you missed something in the last few posts. No one is advocating crossing them to Sussex for spangling. The supposition is and some evidence points to it having been done so improve the ornamental spangling and its part of the problem now so its being disparaged not promoted (at least by me). I *AM* considering out-crossing or maybe we could call it back crossing to a game to see how that improves the stature/posture. I am also giving heavy thought to trying to recreate a blacks here and that's likely how I'll go about it.

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Her color is nice and deep and the spangling and her muffs are very good. (A quick affirmation that pics are sometimes deceiving). The thing about her, other than that head, that I don't like is her feet. She has a little duck foot. Eagle has the best posture/type but her legs are light and she does have a little too much white right now but not bad. She is nearly three years old, too. I find her to be laying fairly well. Not one a day but she isn't a hatchery bird either so I am totally fine with it. Between the four of them I get three eggs a day at present. Two are three years and two are less than one.

I have here a copy of the Russian Standard, an old one, for the RO and between that, some antique renderings and the German standard that's where I am going, not the bantam one we have here. I agree that type is important, thus my concern with heads. Talking with Mr Weis, who has certainly had them longer than you or me, he thinks that the older the hen the more their brow develops. I am not sure about this because of the age of the two hens I was comparing and esp with the inclusion of that pullet on the left. Either way the strong brow ridge is a characteristic of the breed that should be watched IMO.

Rarefeathers, I think you missed something in the last few posts. No one is advocating crossing them to Sussex for spangling. The supposition is and some evidence points to it having been done so improve the ornamental spangling and its part of the problem now so its being disparaged not promoted (at least by me). I *AM* considering out-crossing or maybe we could call it back crossing to a game to see how that improves the stature/posture. I am also giving heavy thought to trying to recreate a blacks here and that's likely how I'll go about it.

Oh okay...I just saw a post about my birds maybe being crossed with Sussex or something like that--and I thought I'd better jump in before too long. It should be interesting if you're able to cross in some game lines....I'll keep better track of this thread. Thanks!

 

[desertmarcy]

Oh okay...I just saw a post about my birds maybe being crossed with Sussex or something like that--and I thought I'd better jump in before too long. It should be interesting if you're able to cross in some game lines....I'll keep better track of this thread. Thanks!

Hi, I made a comment about your birds but what I said was as far as I knew, they had NOT been crossed....

 

[ashandvine]

Yeah, just to be clear one more time, no one was saying it should be done but that it has caused a lot of the problems we have in their type now.

I have been thinking about those pics you posted and I have thought a great deal about the first two pics you posted. That type is GREAT.