Russian Orloffs

[Chris09]

I found this picture of a KO Shamo that has the comb that about what you would be looking for on a Russian if you were breed to the old APA standard.
http://www.pbase.com/johanops/image/72310555

Chris

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

The old Russian Standard I've seen quoted from an OLD book called "Poultry Breeding and Production" said the comb should be "like that of a raspberry cut length wise and covered in small points, carried close to the head". I believe this is an accurate description of a Walnut comb. I've seen other old references state the comb should be strawberry or walnut...all sources seem to indicate that small size is important. Rose combs are not very small, for the most part.

In looking this information up today, I also found reference that the Orloff has been known as the Chilianskaia and Russian (American Standard name) but all are the same bird. It is also worth noting that at least one APA journal from shortly after the breed had been imported to the US said the breed was only recently beginning to have standardized colors.

In order of priority, I believe a hefty size and weight, imposing eye and stature, general hardiness and especially cold hardiness, and dual purpose qualities are the most important things to recover and preserve. Color is immaterial, IMO, and so is the TYPE of comb. Far more important, in my eye, is that the comb and wattles be small as possible. I feel like these priorities are in line with the heritage and history of the breed.

I hope that answers your comb question, Tom, though I know i went a bit overboard!

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
The Walnut, Stawberry Cushion and the Raspberry are all close but also have there differences.

Russians were bred from the Chilianskaia but the Russian was bred along utility lines and height was reduced and egg production was improved.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

Here is a picture of a Orloff with a good comb. (note all the little points)
http://www.pbase.com/johanops/image/75993087

Chris

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Quote:
Do you have a source for that? It is not one I have read.

Everything I've come across has had vastly different things to say about the usefulness of the bird, from the fact that it was strictly a table bird to being predominantly a layer breed to having virtually no functional utility whatsoever. Early American references claim Russian Orloffs (yes, they called them Russian Orloffs, not just Russians,) actually held records for laying! I've also seen that it seems they have only ever been referred to as Russians by the APA, and it is interchangeable with Orloffs, and both are approximately the same bird that was originally the Chilianskaia. All of this suggests that it was only standardized in small pockets with perhaps many different strains differing significantly but sharing a group of similar traits in appearance and region...all of these facts are rather indicative to me that the breed we now know as the Russian Orloff started out essentially as something of a landrace fowl, really. It does not seem to have been a breed that was "created" just one that...emerged? Does that make sense? I will try to compile all of my sources here for you all. I'm sure they're many of the same ones most of you have seen, but perhaps you'll find something new.

 

[ChooksChick]

I have Mahogany and I'm working on black.

This is a breed that are very much hard to track, but I think someone said earlier that it would be likely that whatever is presented will be what is accepted, so those who are working on it should come to a consensus. I'm definitely of a mind that the hight ought to be sought, because we do want this to be unique, and back to what made the bird recognizable.

I also select for the small comb, but I'm not interested in whether there are many points, so if it looks more like a walnut or even absent comb, I'm okay with that. I would like to go more for an absent comb, because I'm working on breeds suitable for cold climates. I am DONE with frostbitten combs!!

I hope that more folks become interested in these, but I think it will be a bit before more folks go after them. Has anyone else had a bird with a rather darker egg? I'm finding one girl lays a pretty dark egg, and that's a bit different.

I think the Kaienkoppe is the right shape for the stance, because it has a Malay history, too, but I think it's small size is not ultimately going to be helpful. I'll be working on selection of the birds I have to improve, rather than mixing something else in at this point. It may take adding Malay, but I'm not going there yet.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I believe someone on Ultimate Fowl was working with adding Malay to improve imposing size and structure. Just came across that again tonight. There is a lot of interesting material compiled on the Orloff on that thread, a simple google search should find it for anyone interested.

Here is another good piece. This is from an essay in the American Poultry Journal, volume 52 from 1921.

The Mahogany Russian Orloff.
By Dr. M. A. Hansen.

The Orloff is really the National fowl of Russia. The first accounts we have of its origin dates back to 1774. Sufficient data is available to show that the origin of the breed came through one of three sources, and thai the Orloff owes much of its fostering care tc Bailiwick of Orloff in the former Russia government of Wyatke, or the sporting Count of Orloff should be credited for its production, or the Russian Admiral Orloff, who strangled Peter III, originated this breed.

These birds are as large as a Rhode Island Red and as near a non-sitter as a White Leg horn, and the only chicken I hare ever eates with a turkey flavor.

I have had these birds in both the National and American egg-laying contests and they have shown themselves to be egg lay en of exceptional ability.

My two-year-old hen in the American egglaying contest was at the head of all other birds at the seventh month and up to the time of her death, during the hot weather in Kansas.

I do not recommend these birds for one living in a hot climate, but for those in the North who have dealt with frozen combs, no bird can begin to compare with them as they have no wattles or combs to freeze- They are heardy and different from all other breeds and are decidedly out of the ordinary. As an experiment I have kept a number of these birds in a cold building which was entirely open and a.t times the thermometer was thirty below, still they kept on laying, though not so well as if they were housed.

The Orloffs were originally bred in several colors. Not until late years has any effort been made to standardize on color.

My selection is the Mahogany colored Orloff and I have improved their color wonderfully. The head of the Orloff is distinctive, being very round. The beak is slightly curved, eyebrows overhanging like those of a Malay. Their particularly characteristic comb— called "Strawberry"—a neat, close-fitting comb of very small size—in fact is frost proof. They are clean legged, non-sitting and will enjoy a distinction of being an ideal fancier's fowl. I find them especially adaptable to limited quarters and yet they can hustle over an eighty-acre field if desired.
The cock of the mahogany variety is most wonderful colored bird. The neck hackle is rich deep orange, blending into brighter hues of gold at the base. The muffling at the throat are mahogany or almost black. The breast and under parts are mahogany, tipped with glossy greenish black horseshoe markings. The saddle matches the neck hackle, the bows being a rich mahogany red. Wing bars are magnificently bronzed showing a pie hue of bright lights.

In general appearance the hen is shnilir to the cock in body except longer and coloring is less intense.
The Orloff is somewhat of a bizarre in pearance and cannot fail to appeal to those who love the uncommon. They are unlike any other breed that Americans have seen.

The British Standard. Shape (Male and Female)

Cock 8 lbs. Hen 6 lbs.
Cockerel 7 lbs. Pullet 5 lbs.

Head—Of medium size, forehead wide.
Beak—Short, stout, and well-curved or hooked.
Eyes—Full, and deeply set under well-projected eyebrows, giving gloomy, vindictive expression.
Comb—Low and flattish. In shape somewhat like a raspberry cut through its longer axis, and covered with small protuberances, mingled with small, bristle-like feathers, this peculiarity being particularly noticeable in the female.
Wattles—Small, and show only in the male.
Ear Lobes—Very small, and hidden under the mufflings in the mature bird, red in color.
Beard and Whiskers—Well developed, especially in the female.
Neck—Fairly long and carried erect. Very heavily hfckled, swelling out so as to form a spherical protuberance, the feathers lying close to the body at the base of the neck, so that the neck appears much thinner here than at the top, and forming a distinct angle with the back.
Body—Broad, with flat, slightly sloping back, and rather full and prominent breast. The female is apparently longer in the body than the male.
Wings—Moderate and carried closely to body.
Tail—Carried erect and fan-like. Tail of male furnished with narrow but long sickles. Tail of female comparatively long.
Legs—Moderately long and stout.

COLOR OF MAHOGANY MALE.
Beak—Yellow, with a thin rose-colored skin at base of beak and nostrils.
Eyes—Red or amber colored.
Face, Comb, and Wattles—Red.
Head and Neck—Rich dark oranges, darkest at the crown of the head, and showing very slight black stripes at base only.
Beard and Mufflings—Mixture of black, mahogany and grey, grey preponderating.
Saddle—Rich mahogany, shading to deep orange.
Wings—Rich deep mahogany, with a strongly denned greenish black wing bar.
Breast—The nearer it approaches a solid Mack the better.
Tail—Black, with a rich greenish sheen.
Legs and Toes—Rich yellow.

COLOR OF MAHOGANY FEMALE.
Beak—Yellow, with a thin rose-colored skin at base of beak and at nostrils.
Eyes—Red or amber colored.
Face and Comb—Red.

Beard and Mufflings—Mixture of black, mahogany and grey, grey preponderating.
Neck— Mahogany, lower hackle feathers showing black striping. Tail—Mainly black. Legs and Toes—Rich yellow. Plumage — Rich dark mahogany, uniformly peppered with black. The entire absence of black or heavy and irregular black splashes are equally undesirable.

I would make one suggestion for the American Standard and that is that we eliminate the black breast on the cock and produce a straight mahogany colored bird in this way it will be much easier to produce the straight mahogany female.

They will do all we claim and more in the hands of the intelligent American fancier.​

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

From "The New Look of Poultry" by Lewis Wright, 1902

RUSSIAN FOWLS.

"Very little has been known as to the fowls chiefly met with in Russia. From time to time reference has been made in various books to fowls which were called 'Russian,' having certain special characteristics, but until the Poultry Exhibition held at St. Petersburg in 1899 I never met with any of these birds.

"In an interesting paper which was read at the Congress held in the Russian capital, it was stated that of the breeds of Russian fowls the first place must be accorded to those Orloffs. called Orloff. The best specimens of this race are all of a very large size, in general the adult cock weighing about 10 lbs., but in some cases they reach 12 lbs. and more, the hens being about 2 lbs. less. The head of these birds is large, nearly round, without the slightest sign of crest, but with heavy whiskers and beard. The hackles swell out below the head into almost a spherical protuberance, but at the base of the neck the feathers lie close, so that the neck appears thinner at the shoulders than above. In body it is large, closely feathered, and very deceptive in the actual weight; in appearance it is not unlike the Indian Game in some respects, although it is not quite so wide in body or heavy in bone, and has a distinct appearance of being deeper in breast, though this is partially due to the fact that the breast is longer and more prominent in front than in the case of the Indian Game. Still it follows that type very largely, and with the exception of the muffs, the head has a similar appearance. Good specimens are rather difficult to obtain. Various suggestions have been made as to the origin of the breed, which is not widely distributed. It has been suggested that it was due to the crossing of the Malay upon the Faverolles or Mantes fowl; but this is denied, and the fact that birds of the Orloff type have been met with for a longer period of time than the Faverolles or Mantes fowls appear to have been known, would indicate that this could not be the origin. As one Russian writer says, the difference between the Orloff and all other species is chiefly in the conformation of the head, which is round and large, the frontal bone being particularly prominent. The conformation of the beak is equally remarkable, no other species having the beak curled as sharply, and which is very evident even in the chickens. The following quotation from a paper read at the St. Petersburg Congress by M. Houdekoff affords all the information obtainable at present.

"' The Orloff fowl has received this name from the fact that it is supposed to have been introduced by Count Orloff-Tschesmensky. This is not, however, very probable, because it was well known by Russians before the time of Count Orloff. We find a description in the work of an unknown writer published in 1774, where it is named " Chlianskaia." Breeders knew the race under the latter denomination until a much later period. Now, without any reason, it is customary to call them the Orloff. The more probable supposition is that they were brought prominently forward by the celebrated horse-breeder, Count Orloff-Tschesmensky, and principally in the province of Ghilan. But he did not give them the name. We may ask whether there are not a few races of domestic fowls, yet unknown, in the centre of Asia? That country has been explored in many parts to a small extent, and it is not impossible that it contains many surprises. It may be that this race of poultry had its origin there, and was not produced in Russia. But we have made it known first to Europe and America.'

"My own observations are that the Orloff is not widely distributed, and it was with considerable difficulty that I secured a trio. Unfortunately both the hens died before they bred, and I have not yet succeeded in securing other specimens. Hence I have no experience as to their qualities, but they would appear to me to be moderate layers, but good in table properties. There are three colours: 1st, dark mahogany; 2nd, speckled; 3rd, white. The first named is the most wonderful in sheen and colour of any fowls I have seen.

"A very interesting class of fowl is that called the Pavloff, and so far as I can learn it is really the progenitor of what we now call the Polish. There were quite a number Pavloff. of these birds exhibited at the St.
Petersburg show, both by Russians and Germans, and they are evidently found in the border sections of these two countries. They differ, however, very distinctly from the Western European Polish, but some of the same characteristics are present, though in a less degree. These birds are much smaller than our Polish, and have feathers upon the legs, in some cases being very thickly feathered, but they are also crested, though the crests are small and differ distinctly from the Polish in shape. As is well known, the crest of the Polish fowls is large and round, whereas these are small. In some cases the crest feathers stand almost erect upon the head; in others there is a transverse line on the top of the head, part of the feathers falling back and the others to the front; a third form was that the larger number of the feathers fall forward over the face like a fringe, with only a few standing up behind; and a fourth had the majority falling behind like a lady's veil thrown back, with a few in front. In no case do the feathers cover the eyes, as is the case with our Polish fowl, and not only can we trace to this breed the Polish, but it is also more than probable that the Sultans, which came to us from Turkey, are sports therefrom. The beards and whiskers are very thick, quite covering the ear-lobes.

"In respect to this breed M. Houdekoff says: 'There are in Russia some crested and muffed fowls which are known under the name of Pavloff. These fouls are original, and have definite characters which distinguish them. They have received the name " Pavloff," because they are bred principally at Pavlovsk in the Government of Nijni-Novgorod, where, it is said, they were introduced by the Empress Catherine II. There are two varieties—the Gold and the Silver. Another breed is called the Russian Dutch, and this is similar to the Whitecrested Black Polish, but has not so large crest, and has a great deal of red in the plumage. The plumage of the others is as in golden and silver Spangled Hamburghs, the groundcolour being golden-bay or silver-white, the feathers ending in both cases with a round, black spangle. The legs and feet are slaty blue.'"

Russian statements respecting the antiquity of the above breeds may perhaps be received with some scepticism. The photographs which we have seen of Orloffs, irresistibly suggest a cross of Indian Game; and all known of the spread of breeds of poultry, makes it far more probable that the great Polish race should have spread from south to north, than from north to south. Mr. Brown also forwards Standards published by the RussianPoultry Society of four other breeds, of which he has no personal knowledge, and which did not appear at the St. Petersburg Exhibition of 1899. They are named as Ushanki, Russian Crested, Siberian Eeather-footed, and Rose-combed. Except that the Feather-footed seems in many points to resemble the Sultan, it is difficult to gather any definite ideas from these descriptions beyond the general prevalence (except in the Rose-combed) of crest and whiskers among Russian fowls.​

 

[mississippifarmboy]

Thanks Rachel, one of those I didn't have. great to see as much of the old writings as possible to give us all an idea of where to go with them in our breeding.
Although they may never again make in in to the APA, I do think as breeders, we should all agree on a common standard and probably at some point start a breed club.


And no I ain't volunteering.

Chris, could you define for me please the color MACK in one of the post above describing breast color, or is that just a typo meaning to be wrote as BLACK? Also, would you define the eye color of the Orloff in the link you posted above as BAY? That is one of the better pictures I've seen posted of a good head close-up.

 

[Wolfwoman]

I WANT!!!!