Safely breeding crested Swedish Flower

Hmm, that may be a problem as I do not have an incubator and plan on using a broody duck to hatch them. My older hens' eggs do have thinner shells. How can you tell if an egg is more porous? Is there a way to tell if the shell will be strong enough before incubating?

You can see porousness in the form of lighter spots in the shell when candling an egg. Sometimes it doesn't show up for a day or two after the egg is laid, but should show up if it's going to after that point. I would definitely not set any eggs that are overly porous under a broody hen! Thinner shells might be tricky as well if your duck is very large or clumsy on the nest.

I can go see if I have a porous egg I can grab a picture of to show you real quick here. No guarantees because eggs are few and far between here these days and most of them I'm getting are from point of lay pullets 😅
 
You can see porousness in the form of lighter spots in the shell when candling an egg. Sometimes it doesn't show up for a day or two after the egg is laid, but should show up if it's going to after that point. I would definitely not set any eggs that are overly porous under a broody hen! Thinner shells might be tricky as well if your duck is very large or clumsy on the nest.

I can go see if I have a porous egg I can grab a picture of to show you real quick here. No guarantees because eggs are few and far between here these days and most of them I'm getting are from point of lay pullets 😅
Got it, thank you so much! Yes, my duck is very large and very clumsy, so probably not the best idea, huh? Hatching eggs is very new to me so all this is very good to know.
 
This is how a porous egg appears being candled. The lighter spots are where the shell is excessively thin and can let out too much moisture or allow bacteria to enter over the course of the incubation period. If I were collecting to incubate, I might consider setting this one in an incubator if I didn't have any better eggs to set, but probably would not set it under a hen. Much more of this spotting and I wouldn't even bother to put it in an incubator. I have set eggs with fewer porous spots than this under hens without issue, however.

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This is how a porous egg appears being candled. The lighter spots are where the shell is excessively thin and can let out too much moisture or allow bacteria to enter over the course of the incubation period. If I were collecting to incubate, I might consider setting this one in an incubator if I didn't have any better eggs to set, but probably would not set it under a hen. Much more of this spotting and I wouldn't even bother to put it in an incubator. I have set eggs with fewer porous spots than this under hens without issue, however.

View attachment 4274983
Very helpful, thank you!!
 
My cockerel is a Swedish Flower and he is crested. I know breeding crested to crested is not advisable.
I have had and been breeding (for myself, not for sale) crested SFH since 2018. There have been no vaulted skulls or any other issues, including with their vision, and they have evaded predators from dawn till dusk 24/7 for (so far) 8 years. The only bird in my flock that needs a crest trim after moulting is an Araucana.

Some people without experience of crested birds in general or Swedish Flowers in particular are happy to repeat/ assert what they find by googling, even though they don't actually know if it is true or not. You choose whose advice to follow.

Also, one of the hens is nearly 9 years old - could this cause any problems?
My oldest hens are 8. Neither lay thin-shelled eggs. Hens of any age suffering with illness may lay thin-shelled eggs while they're symptomatic; endemic and ubiquitous Mycoplasma Synoviae is a classic cause of such issues.

I set one of one of the 8-yr old's eggs in summer 2024, when she was 7. As that was the Araucana, and she's the only one in the flock to lay blue eggs, there is no possibility of confusion that it was her egg set and hatched, nor, because it's the only one with beard and muff, that this is the bird that grew out of it: the roo crowing
DSC08478.JPG

Crests are not a health hazard per se. Lots of wild birds have them too. Inbreeding is what you want to avoid if you want healthy birds.
 
I have had and been breeding (for myself, not for sale) crested SFH since 2018. There have been no vaulted skulls or any other issues, including with their vision, and they have evaded predators from dawn till dusk 24/7 for (so far) 8 years. The only bird in my flock that needs a crest trim after moulting is an Araucana.

Some people without experience of crested birds in general or Swedish Flowers in particular are happy to repeat/ assert what they find by googling, even though they don't actually know if it is true or not. You choose whose advice to follow.

When the initial imports of SFH to the U.S. happened, there were many people reporting these issues. Bear in mind I think at the time there were only two imports, one from Sweden and one from Germany, and if I remember right only one of those lines had the majority of the issues. I experienced a lot of what was described with the bird I ended up with, granted she was only one one bird so not a large sample size in the grand scheme. But I don't think that it was all just made up.

If it helps to visualize, this is the bird that I had who was from crested x crested breeding and who exhibited the neurological symptoms at times. I generally kept her crest trimmed back after it became clear that her lack of vision was exacerbating her issues.

700


However, I cannot deny that the presence of crests could have been coincidental in the birds with issues, you are absolutely correct on that. And being that it's been over a decade since then and further imports have brought new lines to the U.S., maybe it isn't even an issue anymore at all. I do see the same thing repeated about crested SFH a lot, but I don't recall hearing about anyone actually experiencing such issues anymore, now that I am thinking about this more. Trouble with the internet is that words that are posted are often available to reference long-term, whether that information remains relevant or not. :idunno I am grateful for the alternate perspective that had me recheck my own view on this subject!



My oldest hens are 8. Neither lay thin-shelled eggs. Hens of any age suffering with illness may lay thin-shelled eggs while they're symptomatic; endemic and ubiquitous Mycoplasma Synoviae is a classic cause of such issues.

My oldest was 14 and some odd months when she passed, with a lot of birds I've owned also reaching well into their double-digits. If they continued to lay at that age, they often had weaker shells that would break when the next hen came in to lay in the same box. Consistently, these eggs come from the eldest in my flock and never the young birds with the exception of point of lay pullets working through initial hiccups in egg production. However, not all of my older birds do lay weak eggs. I only mentioned that as a caution and not as a guarantee. The nest being fouled by an egg breaking would not exactly be beneficial to the brood overall. 🙂



I set one of one of the 8-yr old's eggs in summer 2024, when she was 7. As that was the Araucana, and she's the only one in the flock to lay blue eggs, there is no possibility of confusion that it was her egg set and hatched, nor, because it's the only one with beard and muff, that this is the bird that grew out of it: the roo crowing
View attachment 4275245

Likewise, I've hatched from 7-8 year old hens as I mentioned in my initial post. Beautiful birds, by the way!
 
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But I don't think that it was all just made up.
There's usually a grain of truth somewhere, or some aspect that chimes with the reader's experience; the trouble is, it gets distorted and twisted as it develops, like Chinese whispers. In this case it seems that things that may be true of crested ducks have been (erroneously) assumed to be true of crested chickens. Disregard for breeds, or consequences of tiny gene pools, or other potentially significant factors are other common sources of confusion.

If you are interested, you might find this useful
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2024.1389382/full

It discusses the Polish, Houdan, and especially Padovana breeds, with specific reference to where and when physical cranial issues may arise. Swedish Flowers are not mentioned, and the details demonstrate that what may be the case in one crested breed may not be the case in others or another, so generalizations about crested chicken breeds per se should be resisted.

In any case, a key point, and the main one for the OP's question, is that it does *not* have a negative health impact on birds so affected. "Of course, feather crests can obstruct the view (Figure 2A), and it cannot be excluded that the pain-sensitive dura mater, which is more exposed under cranial foramina, can lead to impaired welfare. However, so far, there are no studies on this, and no studies have shown that the crest or cerebral hernia has a negative impact on brain size or cognitive abilities. The crest and the accompanying enlargement of the skull lead to a larger brain compared to other chicken breeds. However, the consequences of this larger brain for the animals are not yet known. Behavioral studies have not been able to show an advantage in cognitive or learning behavior (Tiemann and Rehkämper, 2007).... The suitability of the term “cerebral hernia/herniation”, as used by several authors in this context (e.g., Yoshimura et al., 2012; Verdiglione and Rizzi, 2018; Watanabe et al., 2023), is certainly questionable, as cerebral herniation in the medical sense is usually understood to be a dislocation of parts of the brain in pre-existing foramina of the skull (especially foramen magnum) or under dural duplications. This dislocation usually causes acutely severe neurological symptoms and damage. This pathogenesis initially has nothing to do with the phenomenon of the morphological differences observed here between chickens with “cerebral hernia” and those without. These morphological differences are rather seen as anatomical variants or breed characteristics. We therefore believe that the term cerebral hernia/herniation should not be used in this context, as there are no clearly pathological clinical conditions associated with it... That the abnormal development of cerebral elongation leads to pre- and post-natal mortalities (Tao et al., 2020) cannot be confirmed by our study. A hatching rate of almost 82% is quite acceptable and not worse than in other fancy poultry breeds (Anderson Brown, 1988). Tao et al. (2020) also postulated that the membranous skull is prone to mechanical pressure and injury, resulting in unconsciousness and large economic losses in the poultry industry. They assumed that all their results indicate that the brain is injured with dysfunction in chickens with cerebral hernia. In our opinion, there is no evidence that the brains of cerebral hernia-type chickens are damaged in general."
Trouble with the internet is that words that are posted are often available to reference long-term, whether that information remains relevant or not
or was ever true. The amount of tripe is astonishing.
My oldest was 14
that's very impressive. What breed was she?
Likewise, I've hatched from 7-8 year old hens as I mentioned in my initial post. Beautiful birds, by the way!
Did you notice any obvious difference in their resilience? Apparently older mums can pass on antibodies, but to date the only obvious difference I note in the resilience of chicks here is between the home-bred birds (excellent) and those that come out of purchased hatching eggs (average), not between older and younger mums or older and younger broodies.
 
I am considering hatching eggs from my favorite hens who are Ameraucana-type Easter Eggers. It will be my first time hatching eggs and breeding my own birds. My cockerel is a Swedish Flower and he is crested. I know breeding crested to crested is not advisable. Anything I should worry about with this pairing? Also, one of the hens is nearly 9 years old - could this cause any problems? Thanks!

The roo:
img_6494-jpg.4260421


The hens:
d75_5298_00001-jpg.4037081

img_6343-jpg.4229654
I never had any issues breeding my Swedish Flower Hen roosters to my other hens. The others were mostly pea comb hybrids and produced nice offspring.
 
There's usually a grain of truth somewhere, or some aspect that chimes with the reader's experience; the trouble is, it gets distorted and twisted as it develops, like Chinese whispers. In this case it seems that things that may be true of crested ducks have been (erroneously) assumed to be true of crested chickens. Disregard for breeds, or consequences of tiny gene pools, or other potentially significant factors are other common sources of confusion.

If you are interested, you might find this useful
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2024.1389382/full

It discusses the Polish, Houdan, and especially Padovana breeds, with specific reference to where and when physical cranial issues may arise. Swedish Flowers are not mentioned, and the details demonstrate that what may be the case in one crested breed may not be the case in others or another, so generalizations about crested chicken breeds per se should be resisted.

In any case, a key point, and the main one for the OP's question, is that it does *not* have a negative health impact on birds so affected. "Of course, feather crests can obstruct the view (Figure 2A), and it cannot be excluded that the pain-sensitive dura mater, which is more exposed under cranial foramina, can lead to impaired welfare. However, so far, there are no studies on this, and no studies have shown that the crest or cerebral hernia has a negative impact on brain size or cognitive abilities. The crest and the accompanying enlargement of the skull lead to a larger brain compared to other chicken breeds. However, the consequences of this larger brain for the animals are not yet known. Behavioral studies have not been able to show an advantage in cognitive or learning behavior (Tiemann and Rehkämper, 2007).... The suitability of the term “cerebral hernia/herniation”, as used by several authors in this context (e.g., Yoshimura et al., 2012; Verdiglione and Rizzi, 2018; Watanabe et al., 2023), is certainly questionable, as cerebral herniation in the medical sense is usually understood to be a dislocation of parts of the brain in pre-existing foramina of the skull (especially foramen magnum) or under dural duplications. This dislocation usually causes acutely severe neurological symptoms and damage. This pathogenesis initially has nothing to do with the phenomenon of the morphological differences observed here between chickens with “cerebral hernia” and those without. These morphological differences are rather seen as anatomical variants or breed characteristics. We therefore believe that the term cerebral hernia/herniation should not be used in this context, as there are no clearly pathological clinical conditions associated with it... That the abnormal development of cerebral elongation leads to pre- and post-natal mortalities (Tao et al., 2020) cannot be confirmed by our study. A hatching rate of almost 82% is quite acceptable and not worse than in other fancy poultry breeds (Anderson Brown, 1988). Tao et al. (2020) also postulated that the membranous skull is prone to mechanical pressure and injury, resulting in unconsciousness and large economic losses in the poultry industry. They assumed that all their results indicate that the brain is injured with dysfunction in chickens with cerebral hernia. In our opinion, there is no evidence that the brains of cerebral hernia-type chickens are damaged in general."

A very interesting read! I kind of went down a rabbit hole looking through their references as well... I'm holding on to a few of these articles until the fall. I'm going into head and neck anatomy that semester and I feel like it'll be really interesting to refer back to this as I'm learning more about the intricacies of the skull and see if I get a clearer picture of what's being described in them from that :D


that's very impressive. What breed was she?

Just a run of the mill feed store Ameraucana-type Easter-egger, much like the OP's hens. 🙂 The majority of them that I have owned have reached quite advanced ages, but she was particularly special in that regard. I really thought she was going to reach 15 and beyond because nothing seemed to be slowing her down, but then one day she just sort of fell over dead, like her heart just stopped all of the sudden.


Did you notice any obvious difference in their resilience? Apparently older mums can pass on antibodies, but to date the only obvious difference I note in the resilience of chicks here is between the home-bred birds (excellent) and those that come out of purchased hatching eggs (average), not between older and younger mums or older and younger broodies.

At hatch and in their youth they were just as sturdy as any of the other chicks I had in the same brood, a mix of home-hatch and hatchery chicks. I only kept one hen because the rest were cockerels that I couldn't accommodate at the time, but that hen will turn 7 in a few months and has never had any issues with her health at any point, so I suppose you could say she is a generally resilient bird. No more remarkable in that regard than any of my longer-lived birds, however. Interestingly enough for the topic at hand, she has a small crest because she's half Silkie :D

Ganymede.jpg
 

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