Quote:
I about peed my pants laughing out loud!
I about peed my pants laughing out loud!
Sdwd
- Thread starter Yard full o' rocks
- Start date
- Jan 14, 2008
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Yes, there is the option of not awarding a first, or any placement for that matter if there is no worthy entry. I often do it at fairs but it's uncommon at an APA?ABA sanctioned show because as a general rule there are enough quality birds in a class so that it isn't an issue. That said, there are increasingly individual birds seen at sanctioned shows that are not deserving of an award. I think this is a result of the increase in backyard poultry keepers deciding that "Fluffy", their single combed. 4 toed Silkie is the most beautiful bird ever so they take him to the local poultry show. Then they're outraged because they didn't win a trophy & they go on an internet site, not this one of course, and they make all sorts of outrageous claims about how dishonest poultry shows are.
All that said, I have to say it continues to amaze me all the things people who don't show know about poultry shows.
I entered my first poultry show in 1962 so I've been at it awhile now-do the math. I have never brought a disease or an infestation home from a poultry show. I don't quarantine my birds for a day after a show let alone a month. When they come home they go right back where they were when they left. Either I'm extremely lucky & that's 48 years of luck [now you don't need to do the math] or poultry shows aren't nearly as dangerous as people who don't go to them seem to think.
Yes, there is the option of not awarding a first, or any placement for that matter if there is no worthy entry. I often do it at fairs but it's uncommon at an APA?ABA sanctioned show because as a general rule there are enough quality birds in a class so that it isn't an issue. That said, there are increasingly individual birds seen at sanctioned shows that are not deserving of an award. I think this is a result of the increase in backyard poultry keepers deciding that "Fluffy", their single combed. 4 toed Silkie is the most beautiful bird ever so they take him to the local poultry show. Then they're outraged because they didn't win a trophy & they go on an internet site, not this one of course, and they make all sorts of outrageous claims about how dishonest poultry shows are.
All that said, I have to say it continues to amaze me all the things people who don't show know about poultry shows.
I entered my first poultry show in 1962 so I've been at it awhile now-do the math. I have never brought a disease or an infestation home from a poultry show. I don't quarantine my birds for a day after a show let alone a month. When they come home they go right back where they were when they left. Either I'm extremely lucky & that's 48 years of luck [now you don't need to do the math] or poultry shows aren't nearly as dangerous as people who don't go to them seem to think.
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Yes, there's a "judge's book" it's called the American Standard of Perfection.
The "bit of studying" involves a minimum of a 2 year apprenticeship with 10 different judges. Reccomendations from those judges that you be allowed to take the exams. Then there's a comprehensive written exam & an equally comprehensive show room exam. It's a bit more involved than you make it sound.
The last part of your comment is true though. People buy a chicken at the feed store, name it Fluffy, take it to a show & can't believe it when they don't win a prize. Then they come on a board like this & make disparaging comments about poultry judges & poultry shows.
Well as we have already demonstrated in another thread there is a major problem with that book in several areas...you would think with all this "training" and so forth, there would be more knowledge of breeds being judged and there would not be mislabeled birds with ribbons hanging on the cage...case in point...the Light Brahma hen marked and ribboned as a Columbian Rock which happened here at the State Fair just recently. How can you expect to judge poultry on a book that has such inconsistency? If you are curious, read the SOP for the Delaware and then read the SOP for the Delaware Bantam. That is ONE example.
How do you think kids get into poultry? You think they all use their allowance to buy an incubator, breeder hatching eggs and choose the best one to take to show? No, most get hatchery stock and take their PET to a show. They start out crawling then they walk and run. That is where breeders come from...starting out at the bottom and working their way up, the same holds true for experts....they start with little or no knowledge and gain knowledge and experience/training to create the expertise.
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Yes frankly it is amazing that Beth or anyone else would want to LEARN. Why should anyone need to do such a thing when there are so many wonderful experts out there already who cannot tell the difference between a RIR and NHR but are judging poultry entered? Again, there is that rude, self induced superior expert opinion again and the pompous attitude I posted of earlier.
You have probably never seen the back scratching mentality because you do not care to notice it. It happens in every other area of showing...Horses, cattle, swine, etc etc etc. Since you are at a loss regarding political decisions that are non-governmental I shall endeavor to help you understand. It is when one makes decisions based on reasonings having nothing to do with fact or good cause but merely on what can be gained or avoided by making the decision. Example - hiring the incompetent nephew of the boss because he is the nephew and it keeps you from loosing your job to hire the useless slug and doing so when there are better qualified candidates for the job. Handing out a blue ribbon for a chicken that looks like death warmed over, has many faults etc etc just because the chicken was entered by the Fair President's daughter and said Fair President decides on who the judges will be...so the ribbon is given so that said judge can return to judge and keep his/her reputation as an expert/judge intact.
Understand better now?
Quote:
Nor do your number of posts make you an expert, nor does your training, nor does your signature. How do you formulate your opinions? I would hope that they come from what you have seen, read, done, etc etc which is no different than what any of us have made our opinion from. I have yet to see, in person, a poultry judge that knew what the heck they were doing, which is what my statement was based on....they are PRIMARILY idiots. I gave room for the benefit of a doubt that there were a few good ones by not saying they are ALL idiots. However, even that may change real soon solely based on your responses here, giving the benefit of a doubt is looking more and more like an error on my part.
Thank you Braclin...you are very kind. How is the incubation going? Are there new babies yet?
Yes, there's a "judge's book" it's called the American Standard of Perfection.
The "bit of studying" involves a minimum of a 2 year apprenticeship with 10 different judges. Reccomendations from those judges that you be allowed to take the exams. Then there's a comprehensive written exam & an equally comprehensive show room exam. It's a bit more involved than you make it sound.
The last part of your comment is true though. People buy a chicken at the feed store, name it Fluffy, take it to a show & can't believe it when they don't win a prize. Then they come on a board like this & make disparaging comments about poultry judges & poultry shows.
Well as we have already demonstrated in another thread there is a major problem with that book in several areas...you would think with all this "training" and so forth, there would be more knowledge of breeds being judged and there would not be mislabeled birds with ribbons hanging on the cage...case in point...the Light Brahma hen marked and ribboned as a Columbian Rock which happened here at the State Fair just recently. How can you expect to judge poultry on a book that has such inconsistency? If you are curious, read the SOP for the Delaware and then read the SOP for the Delaware Bantam. That is ONE example.
How do you think kids get into poultry? You think they all use their allowance to buy an incubator, breeder hatching eggs and choose the best one to take to show? No, most get hatchery stock and take their PET to a show. They start out crawling then they walk and run. That is where breeders come from...starting out at the bottom and working their way up, the same holds true for experts....they start with little or no knowledge and gain knowledge and experience/training to create the expertise.
Quote:
Yes frankly it is amazing that Beth or anyone else would want to LEARN. Why should anyone need to do such a thing when there are so many wonderful experts out there already who cannot tell the difference between a RIR and NHR but are judging poultry entered? Again, there is that rude, self induced superior expert opinion again and the pompous attitude I posted of earlier.
You have probably never seen the back scratching mentality because you do not care to notice it. It happens in every other area of showing...Horses, cattle, swine, etc etc etc. Since you are at a loss regarding political decisions that are non-governmental I shall endeavor to help you understand. It is when one makes decisions based on reasonings having nothing to do with fact or good cause but merely on what can be gained or avoided by making the decision. Example - hiring the incompetent nephew of the boss because he is the nephew and it keeps you from loosing your job to hire the useless slug and doing so when there are better qualified candidates for the job. Handing out a blue ribbon for a chicken that looks like death warmed over, has many faults etc etc just because the chicken was entered by the Fair President's daughter and said Fair President decides on who the judges will be...so the ribbon is given so that said judge can return to judge and keep his/her reputation as an expert/judge intact.
Understand better now?
Quote:
Nor do your number of posts make you an expert, nor does your training, nor does your signature. How do you formulate your opinions? I would hope that they come from what you have seen, read, done, etc etc which is no different than what any of us have made our opinion from. I have yet to see, in person, a poultry judge that knew what the heck they were doing, which is what my statement was based on....they are PRIMARILY idiots. I gave room for the benefit of a doubt that there were a few good ones by not saying they are ALL idiots. However, even that may change real soon solely based on your responses here, giving the benefit of a doubt is looking more and more like an error on my part.
Thank you Braclin...you are very kind. How is the incubation going? Are there new babies yet?
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Hey, hey, hey, guys! Let's cool off here. I'm not going to moderate this thread since I have been actively participating in it and have asked someone else to take a look at the reported posts, but no need to engage in fisticuffs here.
Bill, thank you for commenting on the blue ribbon question I asked. Clearly, to me, some categories should not have a winner, even if it's the only one there. I do think you have a stereotyped idea of some of the backyard flock owners. They are not all clueless idiots and neither are all poultry judges, so let's cool down some here. Some choose not to show, but that doesn't mean they don't have knowledge of breeds, flock management, etc. No, I don't have a "Fluffy", LOL. I do name my birds since it's easier to ID them that way and I don't have 200 of the same breed, which would be difficult to tell apart. I can say to my DH, go get Lucy, rather than "the New Hampshire hen with the comb that lays on her head like a beret". In the end, it's a chicken, hardly worth all this contention.
Bill, thank you for commenting on the blue ribbon question I asked. Clearly, to me, some categories should not have a winner, even if it's the only one there. I do think you have a stereotyped idea of some of the backyard flock owners. They are not all clueless idiots and neither are all poultry judges, so let's cool down some here. Some choose not to show, but that doesn't mean they don't have knowledge of breeds, flock management, etc. No, I don't have a "Fluffy", LOL. I do name my birds since it's easier to ID them that way and I don't have 200 of the same breed, which would be difficult to tell apart. I can say to my DH, go get Lucy, rather than "the New Hampshire hen with the comb that lays on her head like a beret". In the end, it's a chicken, hardly worth all this contention.
I'm not sure I would want 200 of anything. The feed bill would be ridiculous.
I like a smaller flock that I can interact with on a one to one basis.
Good morning everyone. Well, I have a few answers as to some of the issues of birds at the fair. My first one was the roo with the saddle feathers.
I was told that Seabright Roos should not have saddle feathers and that they should featherwise resemble hens. If so, that would be correct to disqualify all 3 based on the fact they were brought as a trio.
Another--a Golden Laced Bantam Cochin had "vulture hocks" I didn't know what that meant but I was shown and am a little smarter today.
As for mine... The more I look the Splash Ameraucan does have "foriegn color" and even if she didn't... my fault for her being that color in the first place.
And the Black Copper Marans... I was told they were judged by the American Standard and not the European Standard. That one still confuses me as they aren't accepted yet in the APA. And clean legs are not American per say but English.
Overall, I realize the issues are actually due to inadequate Fair helpers, not the Judges. Mislabled cards... times and judging goof ups... not testing the birds....
The judges have to deal with what people bring in and with different levels of excellence in how birds are labeled and displayed.
My Mottled Java were supposed to be changed from the Lamona Class they had me enter them into (due to the writer of the division book classes) forgot to put Mottled Javas in at all.
He never followed through by being there and explaining to the judge what he had done.
I am still kicking myself for not taking the birds all home when I they said they weren't testing for blood but I am enjoying being there and watching all the people look and talk about the birds. At least this year they have a variety to look at.
I can tell that there are a few serious breeders there with birds (two) and theirs are really very nice birds. I did learn alot!
One of the breeders there was helpful in telling me he uses Eprinex for the lice and mites. I checked it out at the feed store and it say that for cattle it has no milk discard and the gentleman said he could use his eggs after 2 days.
Ivermectin says that no slaughter for cattle for 48 days. The Eprinex was way more money at about 150 dollars so I am going to find out if it comes in a smaller bottle.
Well, I will pop in and read some today, but will be very busy outside. It is a "chicken day" with lots of butts to power and coops to clean and disinfect. The Chickens come home tonight and I have to have everyone moved around so that I can have the one huge coop for isolation!
I was told that Seabright Roos should not have saddle feathers and that they should featherwise resemble hens. If so, that would be correct to disqualify all 3 based on the fact they were brought as a trio.
Another--a Golden Laced Bantam Cochin had "vulture hocks" I didn't know what that meant but I was shown and am a little smarter today.
As for mine... The more I look the Splash Ameraucan does have "foriegn color" and even if she didn't... my fault for her being that color in the first place.
And the Black Copper Marans... I was told they were judged by the American Standard and not the European Standard. That one still confuses me as they aren't accepted yet in the APA. And clean legs are not American per say but English.
Overall, I realize the issues are actually due to inadequate Fair helpers, not the Judges. Mislabled cards... times and judging goof ups... not testing the birds....
The judges have to deal with what people bring in and with different levels of excellence in how birds are labeled and displayed.
My Mottled Java were supposed to be changed from the Lamona Class they had me enter them into (due to the writer of the division book classes) forgot to put Mottled Javas in at all.
He never followed through by being there and explaining to the judge what he had done.
I am still kicking myself for not taking the birds all home when I they said they weren't testing for blood but I am enjoying being there and watching all the people look and talk about the birds. At least this year they have a variety to look at.
I can tell that there are a few serious breeders there with birds (two) and theirs are really very nice birds. I did learn alot!
One of the breeders there was helpful in telling me he uses Eprinex for the lice and mites. I checked it out at the feed store and it say that for cattle it has no milk discard and the gentleman said he could use his eggs after 2 days.
Ivermectin says that no slaughter for cattle for 48 days. The Eprinex was way more money at about 150 dollars so I am going to find out if it comes in a smaller bottle.
Well, I will pop in and read some today, but will be very busy outside. It is a "chicken day" with lots of butts to power and coops to clean and disinfect. The Chickens come home tonight and I have to have everyone moved around so that I can have the one huge coop for isolation!
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Cetawin, No babies yet. Starting day 15 today. So a few days to go and we shall see how well i've done on my first go round.
I think TSC carries a smaller bottle- pretty sure I have seen it.
Thank you Nellabean and Beth. I don't have TSC here but perhaps I can pick some up by catalog. There is no way I could use all that before it expired (the gallon)
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