Sebastopol geese - selecting breeding stock, color genetics, and color improvement

[CelticOaksFarm]

This is true but you don't have to use whites to breed for type. Plenty of whites out there who don't look good either

 

[JosieChick]

Pete has all the color genetics worked out and shared on the Sebastopol lovers forum with color charts too.
Worth joining if you aren't there. If you are worth reading the knowledge he shared.
Amy can't wait to see off spring from your Lav girl.
We are selling all the whites in 2013 to focus on the colors. No white crossing here so we don't have to run so many extra pens for whites who might be masking a color.

I had joined a few months back but lost my log in. I have requested a new one twice and never heard back either time with a new log in. Do you have any idea what to do?

 

[Wynette]

This is the second time this thread has been cleaned.

I've asked the OP to reconsider leaving it open, as Staff has discussed it, and we are in agreement that it's less confusing to have one thread, rather than multiple ones of the same topic.

Please, folks - if you're here to argue, move along. This thread is about working together/sharing information on best practices for breeding these beautiful birds.

 

[ChristineR]

If you don't breed for type and only breed for color, the birds will never get recognized.

So true!

Breeding only for color is one of my biggest pet peeves with horses. Some "breeders" think just because they have the latest fad color of stallion, he must be bred and who cares that he has the fugliest conformation ever? He's XYZ color!

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

And again you DON'T have to use whites to breed towards SOP. There are options, and those working with color need to study the genetics and make the choice that works best for them, there space and time.

Josie let me see if I can help get you that log in fixed. Will PM you after we finish up dinner here.

 

[DaveK]

This is the second time this thread has been cleaned.

I've asked the OP to reconsider leaving it open, as Staff has discussed it, and we are in agreement that it's less confusing to have one thread, rather than multiple ones of the same topic.

Please, folks - if you're here to argue, move along. This thread is about working together/sharing information on best practices for breeding these beautiful birds.

It does seem that there are different ideas as to what discussion is or might be. "...working together/sharing information..." does not have to mean that we are all in agreement or will approach our programs in the same way. If someone tosses out their own ideas it stands to reason that there may be questions, comments or disagreements about the best methods available to get the job done but isn't that diversity of thought and opinion what a discussion forum is supposed to be about? Think Think Tank. A previous poster was run off this thread because various viewpoints expressed were unpopular. While those viewpoints might have been expressed with a bit more finesse than they were the fact remains that they touched a nerve because they were valid. The general run of colored Sebastopol stock that we the public get to see really is very sub standard and as has been pointed out being in the APA SOP does not mean that the sainted whites are always so very much better. Anyone who has been involved or observing for the last 5-10 years would likely agree that the colored stock has generally made very little progress. If Dave Holderread pioneered the colored stock and made it easy for the rest of us then something about what those who have been buying and using his stock have been doing is not working. Five generations may not get you there but there should certainly be enough progress in a carefully worked out program for the breeder and observers to feel more than hopeful. Pete's color genetics charts/information have been mentioned. Pete has generously posted them as well as his thoughts, ideas and questions here on BYC where anyone with an interest has access to them. Whatever approach someone wishes to try in attempting to improve the colored stock the information, like the truth, is out there. My own approach may not matter though no matter white or colored I have always felt that breed type and character in anything come before color. That includes Sebastopols. And my own observations of the colored stock would have me feeling that breeding for an improved bird while keeping track of color (and pattern if saddlebacks are an interest) would be the way to get there. Breeding fairly run of the mill stock together in an effort to keep the color and wishing for improvement just doesn't seem to be cutting it. Quality in anything doesn't tend to improve by just wishing it to be so. When trying for very obvious improvement there needs to be the kick in the butt offered by decent genetics. If this means that a color is masked or hidden my own thoughts are so what? Using Pete's generously shared information we can keep color going even if it's not showing. We will also be able to foster the surfacing of that color and hopefully on stock much improved over the originals. The very best colored stock that many of us know of is often better than most of even the white population in this country. Those birds, while being colored, have not been bred with an emphasis on color but with the breeder's stated emphasis being on quality. Wants her colored stock to be true Sebastopols and every bit as good as the best whites that exist. There's been tremendous progress and some jaw dropping birds produced. Those results would have at least this poster believing that an emphasis on overall quality while having some knowledge of color genetics is what will, in the future, create some stunning colored birds that can rightfully be called Sebastopols.

 

[Cottage Rose]

Much of what you are saying DK is true in achieving top quality biirds
but here lies the huge looming problem a lot of people interested in breeding colored Sebastopols are facing....
PLAIN and SIMPLE...quality colored AND white Sebastopols are rarely offered tor sale or only offered to a select few who happen to qualify in the sellers opinion.
I scoured our nation this past year for a quality gander (and have the money to pay for quality) and none were to be found...unless perhaps you have some for sale?
If we are to indeed promote a spirit of community then those people who have better quality stock should be willing to sell to those of us who are dedicated to betterment of the
breed. Nobody expects successful breeders to sell their very best but certainly they have 2nd pick ganders they could sell which would probably be much better quality than what most people have.

 

[Wynette]

It does seem that there are different ideas as to what discussion is or might be. "...working together/sharing information..." does not have to mean that we are all in agreement or will approach our programs in the same way. If someone tosses out their own ideas it stands to reason that there may be questions, comments or disagreements about the best methods available to get the job done but isn't that diversity of thought and opinion what a discussion forum is supposed to be about? Think Think Tank. A previous poster was run off this thread because various viewpoints expressed were unpopular. While those viewpoints might have been expressed with a bit more finesse than they were the fact remains that they touched a nerve because they were valid. The general run of colored Sebastopol stock that we the public get to see really is very sub standard and as has been pointed out being in the APA SOP does not mean that the sainted whites are always so very much better. Anyone who has been involved or observing for the last 5-10 years would likely agree that the colored stock has generally made very little progress. If Dave Holderread pioneered the colored stock and made it easy for the rest of us then something about what those who have been buying and using his stock have been doing is not working. Five generations may not get you there but there should certainly be enough progress in a carefully worked out program for the breeder and observers to feel more than hopeful. Pete's color genetics charts/information have been mentioned. Pete has generously posted them as well as his thoughts, ideas and questions here on BYC where anyone with an interest has access to them. Whatever approach someone wishes to try in attempting to improve the colored stock the information, like the truth, is out there. My own approach may not matter though no matter white or colored I have always felt that breed type and character in anything come before color. That includes Sebastopols. And my own observations of the colored stock would have me feeling that breeding for an improved bird while keeping track of color (and pattern if saddlebacks are an interest) would be the way to get there. Breeding fairly run of the mill stock together in an effort to keep the color and wishing for improvement just doesn't seem to be cutting it. Quality in anything doesn't tend to improve by just wishing it to be so. When trying for very obvious improvement there needs to be the kick in the butt offered by decent genetics. If this means that a color is masked or hidden my own thoughts are so what? Using Pete's generously shared information we can keep color going even if it's not showing. We will also be able to foster the surfacing of that color and hopefully on stock much improved over the originals. The very best colored stock that many of us know of is often better than most of even the white population in this country. Those birds, while being colored, have not been bred with an emphasis on color but with the breeder's stated emphasis being on quality. Wants her colored stock to be true Sebastopols and every bit as good as the best whites that exist. There's been tremendous progress and some jaw dropping birds produced. Those results would have at least this poster believing that an emphasis on overall quality while having some knowledge of color genetics is what will, in the future, create some stunning colored birds that can rightfully be called Sebastopols.

Listen, anyone who feels they were "run off the thread" needs to grow a thicker skin IF they desire to breed toward SOP. And yes, it's fine to disagree and have a differing opinion. The problem comes in when these opinions are put forth in a negative, unhelpful way. When someone post with an accusatory tone, it goes completely AGAINST working together. Of, if someone has an attitude that their stock is better than anyone elses, the same is true. I have been breeding several purebred breeds for years now (chickens) and we go through the exact same thing that you all are going through here. If you think THIS thread can be contentious, go visit the Marans thread or the Black Copper Marans threads. You'll come back here a bit more thankful that things go more smoothly here. Sometimes, it's difficult to "hear" the feedback you need to hear in order to move ahead. I can offer this: the more folks share information, breeding strategies, and good stock, the more quickly you'll move forward.

Much of what you are saying DK is true in achieving top quality biirds
but here lies the huge looming problem a lot of people interested in breeding colored Sebastopols are facing....
PLAIN and SIMPLE...quality colored AND white Sebastopols are rarely offered tor sale or only offered to a select few who happen to qualify in the sellers opinion.
I scoured our nation this past year for a quality gander (and have the money to pay for quality) and none were to be found...unless perhaps you have some for sale?
If we are to indeed promote a spirit of community then those people who have better quality stock should be willing to sell to those of us who are dedicated to betterment of the
breed. Nobody expects successful breeders to sell their very best but certainly they have 2nd pick ganders they could sell which would probably be much better quality than what most people have.

I wholeheartedly agree, and again, we go through the exact same thing with chickens. It takes many years to cultivate a good working relationship with someone who has really good stock, but that's what you need to do, IMHO, to get specimens that will work in your breed pen. We talk about this all the time on other breed threads, that folks who have the premium stock are unwilling to share. That's just the way it is. I will also say that if you breed junk to junk, you'll get junk. So, start with the VERY BEST you can, learn your genetics, use good breeding practices and formulate a plan to move forward, and stick to it! Okay, off my soapbox now. Sorry if I've offended, that sure wasn't my intention.

 

[JosieChick]

It does seem that there are different ideas as to what discussion is or might be. "...working together/sharing information..." does not have to mean that we are all in agreement or will approach our programs in the same way. If someone tosses out their own ideas it stands to reason that there may be questions, comments or disagreements about the best methods available to get the job done but isn't that diversity of thought and opinion what a discussion forum is supposed to be about? Think Think Tank. A previous poster was run off this thread because various viewpoints expressed were unpopular. While those viewpoints might have been expressed with a bit more finesse than they were the fact remains that they touched a nerve because they were valid. The general run of colored Sebastopol stock that we the public get to see really is very sub standard and as has been pointed out being in the APA SOP does not mean that the sainted whites are always so very much better. Anyone who has been involved or observing for the last 5-10 years would likely agree that the colored stock has generally made very little progress. If Dave Holderread pioneered the colored stock and made it easy for the rest of us then something about what those who have been buying and using his stock have been doing is not working. Five generations may not get you there but there should certainly be enough progress in a carefully worked out program for the breeder and observers to feel more than hopeful. Pete's color genetics charts/information have been mentioned. Pete has generously posted them as well as his thoughts, ideas and questions here on BYC where anyone with an interest has access to them. Whatever approach someone wishes to try in attempting to improve the colored stock the information, like the truth, is out there. My own approach may not matter though no matter white or colored I have always felt that breed type and character in anything come before color. That includes Sebastopols. And my own observations of the colored stock would have me feeling that breeding for an improved bird while keeping track of color (and pattern if saddlebacks are an interest) would be the way to get there. Breeding fairly run of the mill stock together in an effort to keep the color and wishing for improvement just doesn't seem to be cutting it.
Is there a BYC thread that Pete discusses color genetics? If so I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of it. I have scoured sebbie threads but can't find much info on appropriate color pairings and would love to read more. I am waiting to hear back on getting a new log in for the sebastopol lovers website. Thanks!!

 

[kimberly35042]

There is actually a slideshow on flickr that he created. THANK YOU PETE!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68107081@N07/6210453029/in/photostream/