Sebastopol geese - selecting breeding stock, color genetics, and color improvement

[JosieChick]

There is actually a slideshow on flickr that he created. THANK YOU PETE!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68107081@N07/6210453029/in/photostream/

Awesome! Thanks so much! Hope you are and your geese are doing well!

 

[Goose and Fig]

I am trying to figure out what I would get with one of Kim's lovely saddleback split for buff ganders over a blue carrying lavender goose.

I think they compliment eachother well. I posted on the seb forum, but Pete hasn't seen it as of yet.

I hadn't had this option before, but thanks to some creative swapping from some of our dedicated breeders, I don't need the blue girl for my lav gander any more!

We can work together- sometimes what you need has been there all along.

 

[JosieChick]

Well after much head scratching and looking at pictures I am thinking of putting the lavender gander over a grey curly goose. Looks like I should get blue out of that cross, BUT, I don't know the color history on either parent birds so I guess it will be a wait and see game next spring. The greys came from a pen that had a grey goose and a grey gander and buff gander so their is no way of knowing who dad was in that mix....I think. The lavender came from a mixed color pen so who knows what else he is carrying. This should be interesting. Now if I can just get DH to start refurbishing my giant redwood incubator I will be in business!

 

[DaveK]

• Wynette
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• Location: Michigan
• Joined: 9/2007
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It does seem that there are different ideas as to what discussion is or might be. "...working together/sharing information..." does not have to mean that we are all in agreement or will approach our programs in the same way. If someone tosses out their own ideas it stands to reason that there may be questions, comments or disagreements about the best methods available to get the job done but isn't that diversity of thought and opinion what a discussion forum is supposed to be about? Think Think Tank. A previous poster was run off this thread because various viewpoints expressed were unpopular. While those viewpoints might have been expressed with a bit more finesse than they were the fact remains that they touched a nerve because they were valid. The general run of colored Sebastopol stock that we the public get to see really is very sub standard and as has been pointed out being in the APA SOP does not mean that the sainted whites are always so very much better. Anyone who has been involved or observing for the last 5-10 years would likely agree that the colored stock has generally made very little progress. If Dave Holderread pioneered the colored stock and made it easy for the rest of us then something about what those who have been buying and using his stock have been doing is not working. Five generations may not get you there but there should certainly be enough progress in a carefully worked out program for the breeder and observers to feel more than hopeful. Pete's color genetics charts/information have been mentioned. Pete has generously posted them as well as his thoughts, ideas and questions here on BYC where anyone with an interest has access to them. Whatever approach someone wishes to try in attempting to improve the colored stock the information, like the truth, is out there. My own approach may not matter though no matter white or colored I have always felt that breed type and character in anything come before color. That includes Sebastopols. And my own observations of the colored stock would have me feeling that breeding for an improved bird while keeping track of color (and pattern if saddlebacks are an interest) would be the way to get there. Breeding fairly run of the mill stock together in an effort to keep the color and wishing for improvement just doesn't seem to be cutting it. Quality in anything doesn't tend to improve by just wishing it to be so. When trying for very obvious improvement there needs to be the kick in the butt offered by decent genetics. If this means that a color is masked or hidden my own thoughts are so what? Using Pete's generously shared information we can keep color going even if it's not showing. We will also be able to foster the surfacing of that color and hopefully on stock much improved over the originals. The very best colored stock that many of us know of is often better than most of even the white population in this country. Those birds, while being colored, have not been bred with an emphasis on color but with the breeder's stated emphasis being on quality. Wants her colored stock to be true Sebastopols and every bit as good as the best whites that exist. There's been tremendous progress and some jaw dropping birds produced. Those results would have at least this poster believing that an emphasis on overall quality while having some knowledge of color genetics is what will, in the future, create some stunning colored birds that can rightfully be called Sebastopols.

Listen, anyone who feels they were "run off the thread" needs to grow a thicker skin IF they desire to breed toward SOP. And yes, it's fine to disagree and have a differing opinion. The problem comes in when these opinions are put forth in a negative, unhelpful way. When someone post with an accusatory tone, it goes completely AGAINST working together. Of, if someone has an attitude that their stock is better than anyone elses, the same is true. I have been breeding several purebred breeds for years now (chickens) and we go through the exact same thing that you all are going through here. If you think THIS thread can be contentious, go visit the Marans thread or the Black Copper Marans threads. You'll come back here a bit more thankful that things go more smoothly here. Sometimes, it's difficult to "hear" the feedback you need to hear in order to move ahead. I can offer this: the more folks share information, breeding strategies, and good stock, the more quickly you'll move forward.

Much of what you are saying DK is true in achieving top quality biirds
but here lies the huge looming problem a lot of people interested in breeding colored Sebastopols are facing....
PLAIN and SIMPLE...quality colored AND white Sebastopols are rarely offered tor sale or only offered to a select few who happen to qualify in the sellers opinion.
I scoured our nation this past year for a quality gander (and have the money to pay for quality) and none were to be found...unless perhaps you have some for sale?
If we are to indeed promote a spirit of community then those people who have better quality stock should be willing to sell to those of us who are dedicated to betterment of the
breed. Nobody expects successful breeders to sell their very best but certainly they have 2nd pick ganders they could sell which would probably be much better quality than what most people have.

I wholeheartedly agree, and again, we go through the exact same thing with chickens. It takes many years to cultivate a good working relationship with someone who has really good stock, but that's what you need to do, IMHO, to get specimens that will work in your breed pen. We talk about this all the time on other breed threads, that folks who have the premium stock are unwilling to share. That's just the way it is. I will also say that if you breed junk to junk, you'll get junk. So, start with the VERY BEST you can, learn your genetics, use good breeding practices and formulate a plan to move forward, and stick to it! Okay, off my soapbox now. Sorry if I've offended, that sure wasn't my intention.
Stock being available is sometimes just a chance thing based on supply and demand at the time. Is there a supply and who is doing the demanding. What some do not understand is that for some their approach to their hobby does not make the production of sale birds a priority. Doesn't mean such folks never have anything, just that a market is not being cultivated. I would like to address the perception that there are premier breeders who will not share stock, period. I am sure that this is true but I don't believe in my over 40 years with exhibition oriented poultry/waterfowl/pigeons/dogs that I have personally run into this mindset. What I have run into is folks who are careful, even picky about where at least some of their stock ends up because they have learned to be careful. Past history can create a difficult present day reality for someone with even a sincere interest in a breed. Good stock has been shared only to have it killed because it was deemed as not performing as it should. Good stock has been shared only to have it poorly utilized and/or simply profited from. Good stock and matched matings have been sent out to folks who then give no credit to the breeder for something nice that may result from that breeder's stock. But good stock sent out and producing something less than wonderful ( and ALL stock does that) is trumpeted about with full "credit" going to the breeder who sold some poor person struggling to improve good looking stock that turned out to be junk. Good stock has been sent out only to have the breeder trashed, bashed and bad mouthed. So yes, there are breeders who are careful about what they place where, when and if they have stock suitable for breed improvement. Do all the situations outlined relate to my own favorite breed? They do but this sort of thing also happens with small livestock in general. There are lots of different reasons for folks to involve themselves with livestock and not all priority systems and mindsets work well together. So while stock from certain breeders may be unavailable to certain others I honestly think the blanket statement that some folks with quality stock just won't share at all isn't quite fairly representing the situation at hand.

 

[Cottage Rose]

Getting back to colored Sebastopols.
With all due respect to Dave Holderread who I have personally talked with on several occasions, found helpful and engaging in conversations and purchased stock from, everything that came off his place was not breeding quality. Here lies the problem. I could be wrong but I get the impression
that the masses think DH is the waterfowl god. Easy for beginners to think if they got anything from DH it was top stuff.
Well what I found was, at least with his Sebs both white or colored that unless you paid a minimum of $300. for a Seb it was not going
to be all that great. Some of them down right crappy. So newbie person happily breeds them thinking they are good quality.
Innocent mistake.

To those of us who are dedicated to betterment of the breed and have to eek their way to better quality because:
A. we can't find or afford top quality birds
B. we're not worthy of being sold top quality birds,
There is hope. You can "breed up." I started out with Metzer line Sebastopols and was blessed to find a wonderful breeder named Audrey Overton
who had quality Sebastopol right here in the mid-west. I purchased some birds from her that were better quality than the birds I had.
My Metzer birds weren't total junk, never-the-less they weren't SQ either but had some some pretty good improvements by breeding to the Overton line.
Now these were whites but with the colored Sebs despite DH great acccomplishments in developing colored Sebs there was still a lot of junk out there...even ones from him BUT if you're determined you can breed up albeit it will take time. I'm doing all I can to share some of the good quality birds I have with others to make hopeful improvements and feel that's what its all about. Does it always work out...no.
Do people always do what I would do...no, but really, we're talking about geese here, not thoroughbred bloodstock so lets just share and learn from each other.
A lot of Pete's info is on the Sebastopol Geese Lovers forum as well as breed and general information we've been compiling as we go along. Come check it out.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

I do wish more with the colored stock would share stock more readily. However if they chose not then so be it. I can breed up and work on goals in mind, but s stated will take longer to get to the wanted results. I do enjoy helpful conversation, and hearing others thoughts when not made in a manor to make anyone else feel like they shouldnt post here as well. No one was run off from here, some posts were edited or deleted due to their negative tone. We dont need rose colored glasses and gum drops, but polite critiques and helpful insight on where and how to make improvements is always welcome.

Personally I have found I prefer the pastel coloring, I want to work on it, so that means getting rid of whites to make room for the others. I would like to find a good buff gander, or goose who has good size. I have a buff goose now but one doesnt make a breeding program. Sadly cant find many (strike that) cant find ANY buffs worth buying. So this buff goose will be crossed to a DH grey gander in hopes of getting 1 good gosling next year. Now if anyone else with good colored stock has some they are looking to sell I would love to know. Feel free to PM or email me.

 

[kimberly35042]

I love the white birds, but buff saddlebacks are my favorite even if they do fade almost to white in the hot summer sun of the south.

I for one shared TOO much and HappyMtn ended up with the better quality grey saddleback (split for buff) gander. (my fault for selling goslings instead of growing them out to see the quality). But CONGRATS AMY! I know how much you love Hugo and he and Alice will hopefully "click" and make beautiful fathead babies.

So I don't know of any other way to get more curls and compliment the nice shape of some of my smoothbreasted colored girls than to use a really pretty heavily feathered white bird I was so fortunate to find rather than use the lightly feathered and smaller typed grey saddleback son.
If anyone knows of a better way to start over, please let me know

 

[Cottage Rose]

Kim that's about all you can do. Use a better bird and keep as many of the offspring as you are able and see what you get.
You've got some nice birds to work with so don't be afraid to try. But even with two very nice birds all their offspring won't be SQ.
I have a pair that breed junk to top show quality so its really luck of the draw even if you put two SQ bird together.
All you can do is try and that's the fun part...annually growing those babies out to see what you get.

 

[Goose and Fig]

I'll make it up to you next summer, Kim

I am so happy with what I have to work with right now. It took 2 years to get this bit of the project together, but there are so many good people here that have been invaluable to the breed and really helped me out. (Especially after only getting 4 goslings to hatch last spring!)

 

[kimberly35042]

Thanks guys! Tough decisions for sure and Studley has the cutest apple head and the rest of him is sortof...ugh. Thankful to have extra room till I decide for sure what to do with him.