Sebastopol geese - selecting breeding stock, color genetics, and color improvement

[fowlman01]

Walt,

This is kind off topic....

I have a question. How can a judge determine the true body type of a sebastopol without handling the bird? You have suggested that there seems to be different body types being shown.

As you know sebastopols have a lot of feathering. Sometimes the feathers on the back and tail area can make a bird appear longer in the body than they actually are. My juvenile birds tend to have very profuse feathering, more so than the older birds in my flock. I was told by the judge at Indy last year that one of my juvenile ganders was too long in the body. (Coop card read NICE, NICE, NICE bird - too long) Clearly though, just "looking at him" as he molted this summer he has an oval body; there is no way in heck he could be identified as having a rectangular or long body during his molt. I also knew when I took him to Indy that he did not have a rectangular or long body.

The standard is clear about the body type on the sebastopol, nowhere does it state that the body should "appear" a certain way in the profuse feathering. I understand that there is a certain look to an OVAL body, but again my point is that this feathering can really obscure what is underneath.

I would also have to argue that a rectangular or longer body would be closer to the standard than a round one:

Oval


Round



Rectangular

There also are DQ's that could be hidden under the feathers that may be missed since birds are not handled. I can see where a judge would not handle a tightly feathered goose, but why not handle the sebastopols? Is this something that should be brought up at a higher level to the APA?

Please don't take this as a personal attack; I really want to learn more about the judging process and how, perhaps, exhibitors can help change/upgrade some things that we may think are not being done properly (IMO) in the show ring. You are one of the only judges that posts here and is open to sharing. You have never judged my sebastopols and I know if you did and I had questions we could discuss it.

No problem..I dont feel attacked. I understand why you would ask. It is supposed to be an oval body and while I see your point, the bird should look like an oval with all the feathers intact and profuse. One of the reasons Sebs should be handled is that they are very prone to angel wing and while the wording has been changed on the Seb description to allow some wing feathers to protrude, it does not allow a full angle wing. The only way to see that is handling the bird. You could formally request that as a breed requirement. Turkeys are not usually handled either and a crooked breast in a turkey is a DQ...the only way to see that usually is to handle the bird. There are not a lot of judges that know how to judge waterfowl and many have never raised waterfowl, so waterfowl get the short end on may occasions. A well respected judge that did the bantam ducks at Indy didn't see that the top gray Call duck had both wings pinioned. I could see that without handling the bird from the aisle. Some judges can judge waterfowl and some can't...even though they have a Gen lic.
Like the AM's, the breed club or individual can make a difference by "educating" the judges to what the SOP says and how that really looks in the show room. I don't show my Sebs because not too many judges know what they are supposed to look like.

Walt

 

[ChristineR]

If you already have the type, this is true. If you have excellent type, color can come next. But I don't know of anyone, including Holderread who would say that color is first. With Sebs the type is already established at a very high level and maybe that is what you meant, but you also mention poultry and I don't know of anyone who would agree with that statement. In my long time in exhibition waterfowl and chickens, I have never heard that type is secondary to color......nor do I believe that

Walt

Thank you for clarifying this. I questioned the "color over type" comment as I read it, but am just learning about geese. I know that if someone suggested that a pretty colored horse should be bred despite it's having glaring conformation faults, I'd think it was a really bad idea (although there are plenty of people out there who breed horses for color only, totally disregarding crummy conformation).

This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it Celtic!

 

[pips&peeps]

I see an "Edward Scissor Hands" moment coming before the next show............................

(just kidding)

 

[pips&peeps]

Quote: A good reason to get a breed club started so that when a big show is coming, you have more options to have a meet and more or less "pick your judge".

PS Walt, post some pics of your sebs!!!!!!

 

[fowlman01]

A good reason to get a breed club started so that when a big show is coming, you have more options to have a meet and more or less "pick your judge".

PS Walt, post some pics of your sebs!!!!!!

Clubs can have some input in some shows. The IWBA had a list at one time of judges that could do a good job on waterfowl. Waterfowl get the place in a show hall that no one else wants and sometimes get "a judge" that may not know waterfowl well. Sebastopols are a mystery to some judges. When I show my China's ..if the judge is from the midwest, I will enter the biggest nastiest one I can find that has a good knob..it works. I have had judges write things like "too small" etc on them cuz they have never seen a real one.

Try to educate the judges at shows. It seems to work. I'll try to take some pics of my Sebastopols during that two week period when they look good. They always step on the long feathers and break them off.

Walt

 

[cfsebastopol]

I did an internet search. I was not able to find a Sebastopol Club. Is there on out there?

I breed mine by type, feather, then color.

 

[DaveK]

I want my colored birds to look like my whites and these colored birds have white in them. Not that you don't get some junk but I am pretty picky at culling and don't put anything out to be bred from that is not good enough to use. I have always enjoyed these birds and do not concentrate on selling but making a better bird that I enjoy looking at. So please don't tell me that there are no quality colored birds out there because there are.

What a great post. A few comments and a couple of photos worth a thousand words.

 

[DaveK]

Dave and Jennifer thank you for your thoughts (and pictures too) and being willing to offer words and photo examples to help other better what they have. I love the blues Jennifer has, and hope I can get Pur buffs and lilacs there with time and dedication. I have a curly buff this year I like the coloring and feathering. Now I am torn if I should cross with white or grey to help pull the type in better?
Anyways, I started this thread as a learning tool/sounding board so those who want better colored variety Sebbies can set goals and try and make improvements.

The answer to your question about what to partner your buff with would be, from me, to ignore the color and breed the buff to something that you feel will help foster improvement in the areas needed. What sex is this buff bird? That will affect what you get visually but the main thing is to breed for the better bird. Buff color you can keep track of and have rise to the surface again quite easily. At least with the geese. Ganders can be harder to get. The main thing is to not figure out what color to breed to but what set of characteristics. Sometimes improvement is so unlikely that it is better to start over. There are times we all need to back off, take a good look and decide where to go from there.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

We have a buff goose and buff gander both. They both need improvement so was not going to pair them. I will see if I can isolate and get new pictures. I need to anyways since I have two mystery color who I unsure of color. I "think" they are lavender due to the silvery tone showing up in their new feathers. Our sunshine reeks havoc on color fading it badly in the summer.

 

[Cottage Rose]

Oh lord...just to clarify then I'm not touching this post with a ten foot pole.
I didn't mean type doesn't matter or that you should breed any ugly a birds together because they are a certain color.
In order to get a new color you have to cross to another breed that has the color you are seeking but could be quite different type wise than the breed you are introducing color to.
Then you correct the type as needed. Thats all I meant.
Such as when John Blehm was making lavender Ameraucanas, he bred to Belgian d’ Anvers
Do you think the early crosses looked like show quality Ameraucana's? Um no.

For those of you critical of the Sebastopols put up at Crossroads...maybe you should of been there with your superior Sebastopols.
As for what places at any given poultry, cat, dog, horse or gerbil show here's how it goes....
dog show on Saturday...my blue Great Dane placed 4th in a class of 4...next day different judge,
1st in a class of 10. Dats how it goes partners. Highly subjective.
Congratulations to Melinda Hoffman and Patti Zimmerman. I'm happy for both of you and it was great meeting up with you at Crossroads.
Two great ladies!

As for colored Sebastopols especially buffs and saddlebacks, I use to think they weren't that pretty either until I saw some in person.
I thought they looked "dirty" too, but my oh my so many people love the saddlebacks upon seeing them.
Then on the other hand beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for DH doing a "disservice"...hardly! He was a pioneer in the developement
of colored Sebastopols and to be commended for his efforts. Are colored Sebastopol perfect, no, and neither are all white Sebastopols perfect.
At any rate... VIVE LA DIFFÉRENCE and to each his own!