Selecting for Short / Non Crowing Line (Share recordings from different breeds?)

[6Happiness]

I want to develop a dual purpose city-friendly line, thus the interest in low/non crowing. I'm sure they'd still vocalise to some extent, but I want to try to get it to be as infrequently as possible during the day, and for it to be shorter/softer so as to be less obtrusive to city/suburban environments.

There doesn't seem to be much info out there. I'm starting from the idea of basically reading about breeding for long-crowers, and then doing the opposite but as with anything, there may be exceptions or things I haven't thought of, so input is welcomed.

I have searched on the the-coop.org site and saw a few years ago there was someone experimenting with the idea, but didn't find any updates.

I figured I start by asking: Have you noticed any differences in length of crowing between specific breeds that you have kept?

If you've noticed specific breeds that were quieter, which ones? Or do you find it random with short and long crowers appearing in the same lines? Or somelines are random/mixed and others are more homogenous? If you noticed specific lineages (that you have) tend to be short/non crowing, would you be open to possibly sharing some eggs?

I'd love if people could record their roosters and share the audio/video of them with a notation on what breed(s)/lines they are.... I'm hoping a "library" of rooster crows with related data on the roosters' background would give me an idea of what breeds/lines to start with, and then i can start apply selection to this foundation.

 

[chooks4life]

I want to develop a dual purpose city-friendly line, thus the interest in low/non crowing. I'm sure they'd still vocalise to some extent, but I want to try to get it to be as infrequently as possible during the day, and for it to be shorter/softer so as to be less obtrusive to city/suburban environments.

I think it's an awesome idea, and the first person to achieve it could make a business out of it, all going well. Random suggestion --- the anti crowing collars that inhibit crowing could assist in breaking the habit while trying to fix the trait. Not sure if that's the right way to go about it, just a thought. I observed crowing for many roosters seems to be sufferance of some involuntary spasm whereas others were able to crow by choice and decide not to, as well.

There doesn't seem to be much info out there. I'm starting from the idea of basically reading about breeding for long-crowers, and then doing the opposite but as with anything, there may be exceptions or things I haven't thought of, so input is welcomed.

I think it's overall a decent idea but I'd be cautious of the possibility of accidentally selecting for subfertile or infertile males whose quietness is actually based on low levels of male hormones or excessively high female hormone levels rather than mentality and inherited predisposition.

I'd always choose smarter males over unintelligent ones as smarter ones are almost always quieter in my experience and the less intelligent he is, the more likely he is to scream his head off nonstop and that's also the sort of rooster who takes up screaming at all hours of the night because he heard a noise somewhere. The same is true of hens. Hysterical, silly roosters or hens who resort to screaming at the world whenever excited or upset are counterproductive. Some can be trained to stop on command but culling the trait out is a safer bet. If you regularly notice a rooster respond to being startled with the alarm call, ascending in volume despite lack of the actual stimuli increasing in justification for that, then I'd cull. Some like to work themselves into a frenzy over nothing.

I have searched on the the-coop.org site and saw a few years ago there was someone experimenting with the idea, but didn't find any updates.

I figured I start by asking: Have you noticed any differences in length of crowing between specific breeds that you have kept?

It's very variable, unique to each family line of each strain of each breed, but generally White Leghorns were the noisest chooks I've ever known. Male or female. But especially male. Leghorns in general were very noisy. Length of crowing was generally also longer in them.

I did have one mongrel male who was given to me who was culled not long thereafter because all night long, every night, he would only cease crowing long enough to draw breath for the next crow. I'm not exaggerating at all. You see why he had to die, I'm sure. He was some sort of bantam mix, could have been a colored leghorn mix.

If you've noticed specific breeds that were quieter, which ones?

Silkie males had some quiet ones among them but some people have really noisy Silkie males... It's too variable to name any breed with any assurance.

Or do you find it random with short and long crowers appearing in the same lines?

No, in my experience family predisposition towards silence or noisiness is very pronounced and breeds true more often than not, which is saying a lot since I breed total mongrels.

If the father is noisy you can almost always assume the sons will be, and the voice pitch etc, crow pattern, duration and repetition rate, etc are all very, very heritable, you can reliably tell descendents of certain males by voice alone once you've heard enough. Daughters also tend to inherit their mothers' vocalization tendencies and voices.

Or somelines are random/mixed and others are more homogenous?

Didn't see much in the way of randomness or mixing, but, if a trend towards noisiness was noted in any descendents of a normally quiet bird, I culled those who showed the trend and that knocked it on the head, generally. Breed quiet to get quiet, like you breed loud to get loud, seems logical and feasible enough, but they can be easily retrained by noisy flockmates to make the alarm/'egg song' noise nonstop, or crow at all hours of the night, so I'd suggest you show extreme, unforgiving and rapid acting prejudice towards any who do that. On that topic my hens almost never make the so-called 'egg song' which is basically the exact same thing as the alarm call, I don't believe it's natural to wild chooks since making such a ruckus at the nest would draw predators and end that hens' bloodlines quickly, killing the trait with her. I reckon humans are responsible for the 'egg/panic song'. Almost as a rule, if my hens make that noise, it means there is a predator in the coop.

If you noticed specific lineages (that you have) tend to be short/non crowing, would you be open to possibly sharing some eggs?

Well, I'm in Australia, not sure where you are, but I have mongrels, not purebreds, so even if you wanted mongrels chances are I couldn't get them to you. Plus my flocks' just been through a heck of a lot of moving house repeatedly, and decimation from predators, thieves, injuries etc, so I've got a lot of rebuilding to do. If you were also Aussie I'd consider some sort of cooperative breeding project perhaps, surely the more people working for it the better. But I doubt that's a possibility though breeding out crowing is something I reckon someone will achieve sooner or later.

Along the way of culling out bully traits I culled out excessive vocalization traits, success occurred quite rapidly and with strict selection and culling criteria I believe you stand a very good chance of achieving your goal or at the very least making serious inroads into it --- but you'd probably need to start with the least noisy animals you can, not try to breed the noisiness down to normal levels otherwise you'd take twice as long to achieve your aim. It would help if you can observe the sires of your potential breeding males and females as well as the dams and observe tendencies to vocalizations, high flightiness or anxiety levels, etc.

I would be wary of any male with an abnormally short crow --- preference towards being predominantly non-crowing without exhibiting any inability to crow is better to aim for than short crowing, I think. I had one male with a very, very short crow, must have lasted two seconds on average despite his size and apparent robustness, and he managed to sire one sub-par pullet from years of attempting to breed. He was almost entirely infertile. I don't know if the crowing ability is linked but there is some evidence to suggest it is often correlated to fertility. It's not how often he crows, but whether he's able to, generally speaking. After all long crowers are also known to suffer fertility problems like any breed.

I'd love if people could record their roosters and share the audio/video of them with a notation on what breed(s)/lines they are.... I'm hoping a "library" of rooster crows with related data on the roosters' background would give me an idea of what breeds/lines to start with, and then i can start apply selection to this foundation.

My best breeders were stolen (lol) and I have no adult males left, but I've had over 50 adult males living so quietly that you'd think there was one, maybe two roosters on the whole place, and not very vocal ones at that. I think our record for quietness was in the region of 5 crows in one day, total. But it varied. Still, there was no constant noise. I kept them free range with the females and chicks so it's not like they didn't have ample stimuli and diversions to occupy them, I notice all-male pens (and often all-female pens) seem to chorus together very regularly like it's the highlight of their day --- and maybe it is. They also tend to have very high anxiety levels and panic and become hysterical about things a free ranged chook would merely glance at.

But my flock's not unique in that quietness, I've known various people whom I didn't know had roosters until I saw them stroll past as they were so quiet. Caged ones almost as a rule are very vocal, it'd be something to work around if they are going to lack stimuli in suburban coops or backyards.

Mine were all mongrels after I removed the purebreds, none of those purebred males were worth breeding for me. Still, even with mongrels comprised of many dozens of different breeds mixed together in different backyards and towns, all mixed into one flock with multiple family lines, I found securing traits for quietness, vigor, socially beneficial behavioral and instinctive traits, etc was very easily achievable, contrary to what some believe. It didn't take long; the 7 generation rule of thumb, to remove or fix a trait, is generally pretty applicable. But I was very strict in culling against traits I didn't like and excessive noisiness in either gender was one of those traits.

Best wishes with your endeavor.