Self-Blue Cochin Bantams

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
The affidavit that you sign states that you've been breeding them for 5 years and that they breed true. That's for the APA. I don't believe there is as detailed a requirement for the ABA but will look it up.

Separate qualifying meets would be required if you wanted them to be recognized by both APA and ABA. Most shows are APA and ABA sanctioned, and there are a number of bantam Cochin varieties recognized by the ABA but not the APA. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing both at the same time, just have to have the numbers (50 for APA). Those are totals. So essentially there could be 10 ckls, 20 pullets, 5 cock birds, and 15 hens etc.

You would think it would be easy to find 5 breeders with good Blacks that are interested in devoting the time to a new variety and doing the crosses required, but it isn't. Most breeders stick with one or two varieties and that's it, and they usually raise Black or Whites or both and maybe another variety. That's why the other varieties are so much fewer in numbers.

 

[mjgigax]

This is a good discussion. Thank You! I am learning alot.

 

[cochinman2005]

So I double checked the type of meet that a variety qualfying meet would need to take place at, and it's either the annual or semi-annual for ABA. Everything else posted previously is correct. When we get to that point, we'll submit the proposed description to the ABA Standard Committee. It should be fairly straight forward since the Self-Blue variety is already described so it would be another variety listing under Cochins with a reference to the Self-Blue color description.

 

[dak]

Sounds like it's time to get organized!

 

[Prism Poultry]

Quote:
Good morning.
I do not have a waiting list, but it's important to note that I don't sell chicks or eggs. Adult birds only.

With a variety like this, it wouldn't be advisable to go with chicks or eggs anyway. How would you know what you are getting?

Something to keep in mind... It is my intent to work toward a qualifying meet for Self-Blue Cochin Bantams sometime in the future. That said, when I am satisfied that my Self-Blues are to a point in my breeding where I am comfortable letting some go, I'll be looking for breeders willing to continue breeding and improving the Self-Blues, and willing to attend and exhibit the required number of birds for such a qualifying meet. I am currently on the f3 generation, so the f4's will again be Self-Blue. If I am not satisfied with the f4 progress, I will then go back to Blacks for the f5 generation, meaning that f6 will again be Self-Blue. Certainly by f6, they should be fairly nice with consistent results. The f3's have much better feather quality than the f2 Self-blues, but what I've noted in the short time that I've been working with Self-Blue, is that they tend to have poor feather quality compared to the other varieties. Hopefully, the infusion of good characteristics from my Blacks will help in that department. Also, and I've made note of this in previous posts. The leg color on most of what I've seen in Self-Blue Cochins to date is incorrect. All varieties of Cochin Bantams call for Yellow, or swarthy yellow legs, and that is also the leg color I am breeding for in the Self-Blues, so as to remain consistent with the current Bantam Standard descriptions. I have culled most of the non-yellow legged birds in the f3 generation, but the best typed cockerel (previous post), has white feet. So, in using him for breeding crossed to a yellow legged female, I should see 50% yellow legged offspring. When you consider that only 25% of the f4 generation will be Self-Blue and then only half of the 25% of the chicks out of any breeding I use that male in will have yellow legs, it means a considerable amount of hatching, which I knew going into this would be required. 75% of what's hatched can be culled out of the incubator in the f4 generation because they'll be black.

If I am satisfied with the f4 progress I intend to show some Self-Blues at the Crossroads Show in Indianapolis next October. I won't know until next year if I'll have any to sell.

As far as qualifying meet requirements for the ABA. I will have to check to make sure, but I believe, for a new variety, that there must be a minimum of 25 Birds exhibited in all four classes, by 5 or more exhibitors. I believe the qualifying meet has to be at either the semi-annual or annual meet. A new breed would have those same requirements but at both the annual and semi-annual. I'll look tonight and confirm what I've said is true.

I didnt' mean the above to sound uppity or snobbish, I just want to share my intentions and get across that I won't let any of the Self-Blues go until I think they are ready. I am treating them like a fine wine.

Tom

Tom - Thank you so much for your response. I can appreciate where you are coming from with only selling adults. With regards to the "how would you know what you are getting" comment, the same really could be said for just about anything. You can breed the best of the best and still get crap. Just the way it goes. I absolutely adore Bantam Cochins and the idea of having them in my favorite color is a dream come true. I am not a big time breeder, I am a casual backyard chicken enthusiast but anyone that knows me can tell you that I don't do anything half way. If I do something, I do it right. With that said, I really want them just to enjoy them. I really like your birds though and while I have found a few eggs listed for sale here and there, when I look at pictures of the adults and then look back at your birds, I just can't seem to bring myself to do it. Of course, I would love to be able to breed a few of them and if I am going to do that then I would really like to get the best birds that I can. Again, I am not looking to get into a big breeding project but I would love to have a few of these birds to work with for myself and see what I can do.
If I understood your response correctly though, you are not going to be selling anything but adults and that could be later next year or even later. I also got the impression that you are only going to be willing to sell birds to people who are "full on breeders" who will continue with your work idea and get the breed recognized. While I would love the chance to work with them ( on a very small scale ) I definitely got the impression from your response that I am not the kind of breeder that you are looking for. So I guess I will reluctantly have to continue on with my search and find the best birds that I can. I already know that my odds of finding anything even half as good as what you probably cull are slim but I am desperate to have some of these birds for myself so I guess I will just have to start from the bottom. I will just have to work with what I can get and do my best to improve them, just as you have been doing.
Thank you again for your response.

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
Good morning.
I do not have a waiting list, but it's important to note that I don't sell chicks or eggs. Adult birds only.

With a variety like this, it wouldn't be advisable to go with chicks or eggs anyway. How would you know what you are getting?

Something to keep in mind... It is my intent to work toward a qualifying meet for Self-Blue Cochin Bantams sometime in the future. That said, when I am satisfied that my Self-Blues are to a point in my breeding where I am comfortable letting some go, I'll be looking for breeders willing to continue breeding and improving the Self-Blues, and willing to attend and exhibit the required number of birds for such a qualifying meet. I am currently on the f3 generation, so the f4's will again be Self-Blue. If I am not satisfied with the f4 progress, I will then go back to Blacks for the f5 generation, meaning that f6 will again be Self-Blue. Certainly by f6, they should be fairly nice with consistent results. The f3's have much better feather quality than the f2 Self-blues, but what I've noted in the short time that I've been working with Self-Blue, is that they tend to have poor feather quality compared to the other varieties. Hopefully, the infusion of good characteristics from my Blacks will help in that department. Also, and I've made note of this in previous posts. The leg color on most of what I've seen in Self-Blue Cochins to date is incorrect. All varieties of Cochin Bantams call for Yellow, or swarthy yellow legs, and that is also the leg color I am breeding for in the Self-Blues, so as to remain consistent with the current Bantam Standard descriptions. I have culled most of the non-yellow legged birds in the f3 generation, but the best typed cockerel (previous post), has white feet. So, in using him for breeding crossed to a yellow legged female, I should see 50% yellow legged offspring. When you consider that only 25% of the f4 generation will be Self-Blue and then only half of the 25% of the chicks out of any breeding I use that male in will have yellow legs, it means a considerable amount of hatching, which I knew going into this would be required. 75% of what's hatched can be culled out of the incubator in the f4 generation because they'll be black.

If I am satisfied with the f4 progress I intend to show some Self-Blues at the Crossroads Show in Indianapolis next October. I won't know until next year if I'll have any to sell.

As far as qualifying meet requirements for the ABA. I will have to check to make sure, but I believe, for a new variety, that there must be a minimum of 25 Birds exhibited in all four classes, by 5 or more exhibitors. I believe the qualifying meet has to be at either the semi-annual or annual meet. A new breed would have those same requirements but at both the annual and semi-annual. I'll look tonight and confirm what I've said is true.

I didnt' mean the above to sound uppity or snobbish, I just want to share my intentions and get across that I won't let any of the Self-Blues go until I think they are ready. I am treating them like a fine wine.

Tom

...
If I understood your response correctly though, you are not going to be selling anything but adults and that could be later next year or even later. I also got the impression that you are only going to be willing to sell birds to people who are "full on breeders" who will continue with your work idea and get the breed recognized. While I would love the chance to work with them ( on a very small scale ) I definitely got the impression from your response that I am not the kind of breeder that you are looking for. So I guess I will reluctantly have to continue on with my search and find the best birds that I can. I already know that my odds of finding anything even half as good as what you probably cull are slim but I am desperate to have some of these birds for myself so I guess I will just have to start from the bottom. I will just have to work with what I can get and do my best to improve them, just as you have been doing.
Thank you again for your response.

That's not really what I was saying. I am willing to sell to whomever is interested assuming I have sufficient birds that I am willing to let go. I've had requests for some of the splits, which I won't do. First and foremost I'll make sure that I have sufficient birds to continue my breeding program, if the f4's aren't to my liking I'll go back to Blacks for an f5 generation, with Self-Blues again in the f6. I am hopeful that the f4's produce a good number of birds that are at least of a quality to work in a breeding program, but I also realize that there's a benefit in doing another split to Black generation no matter what the f4's look like. I'll keep this thread updated as we progress into 2011. In looking for breeders to distribute the birds to I'd like to at least know that there's a good chance that some of them will enter into a breeding program with the intent to show them, get them recognized and I'll actually see some in the show halls down the line.

 

[Mr. Ree]

This is a very gorgeous color of Cochin. I have admired pics of them from Europe for many years and have been patiently waiting till the color has caught on here in the US. Now that it has I would love to find some quality birds to breed from and help get this color recognized. It would be even better if it were frizzled too (got to have everything frizzled, lol). I like the more unpopular colors or ones that are harder to find. I also want to find some quality Red birds to start breeding to get more quality Red Cochins in the show ring. I have been out of showing and havent had birds for about 3 years now due to health and other personal issues. I hated selling my flock, but it was the best thing to do at that time, and keeping my birds best interest at heart I sold them to people who really needed them or would use them accordingly. As far as the Lavender/Self Blue color goes in Cochins, I just really like the color itself and would love to have quality birds in the future to breed from. Now that things are looking better on my end I would love to get back into showing and breeding these incredible birds again. Good luck with this project Tom, you have amazing birds and a great sense of judgement when it comes to picking the best out there. Keep us posted on progress!


~Casey

 

[PhoenixFeatherFarms]

Some of my Split Lavender Chicks growing out

Lavender Split Chicks growing up

Cockerel

Pullet

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
What color is the bottom of their feet? Is this the first generation Self Blue X Black?

 

[PhoenixFeatherFarms]

Quote:
Sorry it took me a bit to get back.. Yes they are only my f1s and as of this moment I have some with greyish bottoms, some with white and greyish spots, and some with white. Im going to let they grow out some more but the ones with the grey I want to cull first correct? Then the white and grey would be culled next right? Then bad type white would be next. Then go on to breed the better typed white bottom feet chicks and start over with the Lavender offspring.