Self Blue (lav gene) shows up unexpectedly?

[Pathfinders]

Anyone on this forum a poultry genetics expert? Had an interesting recessive crop up in some Dutch Bantams lately, am trying to determine how it happened. (These showed up in some birds from my bloodline that were sold to a good friend.)

Long story short, a Blue Cream Light Brown male was bred to a Cream Light Brown female (both from the same line), and a Self Blue pullet was produced.

Self Blue is the Lav gene, this much I know. The question is, how could it remain hidden in this line of birds for so long (easily 20 years or so)? I know it's not a Splash bird, have some of those, def not Splash (and besides, the parents weren't both BCs, so not possible.)

The Self Blue pullet was bred back to her father, and had some Self Blue chicks. These are birds I sold to a friend, saw them this past weekend. He's going to send me some pictures that I will post here (as well as in the Dutch forum in the Classroom at the Coop.)

Just thought I'd ask, in case anyone here might know. Thanks.

Here are the pics:

Here are some chicks that are her full siblings (sorry so blurry):

And here are two chicks that are from her, mated back to her father:

 

[Schultz]

I have no clue when it comes to genetics but I wanted to say they are beautiful!!

 

[Krys109uk]

The new feathers growing through on the chicks, in your photos, look blue; they look too dark to be lavender. In my experience lavenders feather up a light blue/grey.

Like this little cockerel (ignore orange reflection on breast, it is reflection from a bright new wooden shed).

I can see why the pullet is thought to be lavender, but I am not sure. She appears to have darker edging around her feathers & what appears to be darker hackles. Lavender is usually even in colour. Are those little marks in her plumage dark flecks? There can be quite a variation in expression of blue.

The best way of finding out for certain is to test mate.

 

[Pathfinders]

Hi Krys, I didn't know you were on here! Glad to see you.

Yes, there are tiny flecks on several feathers. But I can't imagine how a Splash/Blue bird (who is colored so evenly) would come out of a Cream/Blue Cream mating. Or even an Andalusian Blue, for that matter, with no igig in her.

It will be illuminating to breed her to one of her "blue" sons, to see what comes out. Is it possible to tease out Andalusian blue and leave the igig behind?

It's certainly an interesting experiment, that's for sure!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I'm not sure of the genotype for blue creme light brown, but ig shouldn't affect blue pigment, only red/gold.

What is the colour of the tail shafts on top and on bottom?

 

[Pathfinders]

I just have never seen a BCLB throw anything that didn't have the cream gene in it (igig.)

Her tail shafts are a darker blue (as I recall) than the feathers themselves.

 

[Henk69]

The strange thing is that the "self blue" pullet was uniform in color.
What kinds of dutch bantam are in the vicinity?

 

[Pathfinders]

Hi Henk,

Her mother, a Cream Light Brown, was in a breeding cage/pen with a Blue Cream Light Brown male. No other bird could have slipped in to breed her. All my friend has is Light Browns, Creams and Blue Creams.

Thanks for your comments! Nice to see someone from the Netherlands weigh in on this.

 

[Krys109uk]

Hello Laura,
Good to hear from you.

I'm just looking at the colours of Dutch on Feathersite, many of which are your birds.

I had cream (light) brown Leghorns back in UK but I didn't put blue (or lavender) onto them.

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGD/Dutch/BRKDutch.html

I don't think I read your initial post properly.
I didn't take in that she was from a blue cream light brown on cream light browns?

The first obvious inconsistency is the fact that the pretty pullet's breast is the same colour as the rest of her body.

I am also puzzled by the look of the chicks. None of those chicks look like one might expect of a blue (or lavender) cream light brown. These are puzzling. Don't your cream light brown chicks usually have a large V on head with eye stripes, thick dark central stripe with a light stripe either side (typical e+, wild type down)?
The males of many of the colours can look rather similar; is it possible the father might not be a true blue cream light brown?

 

[Pathfinders]

Hi Krys,

The pullet in the pictures was produced by a Blue Cream Light Brown male over a Cream Light Brown female. Both were my birds, that were sold/given to a friend.

Both are purebred Dutch, and pure for their colors (within C/BC pens) as far back as I, or the breeder of their ancestors (Jean Robocker) can go (and Jean's been doing this since the 1980s, I think.)

I am waiting for my friend to send me their legband numbers so I can look up their pedigrees, (my records on them are on a computer that isn't up and running now), but I am 99% certain they go back to a Blue Light Brown male I got from Jean who also carries the Cream gene, igig, but who didn't show it in his phenotype (he looks like a BLB.) If he is not their foundation sire, then they come from a line of BC males that I got from Ken Lee, who got him from other breeders of purebred Dutch (I think their name was Marshall, but am not sure.) Either way, the color was BC.

I also was quite puzzled that the pullets breast has no trace of salmon, nor any trace of cream in her hackles. I have one BCLB Splash female (will get a pic of her on here later) and she looks completely different than this pullet does.

And yes, most Dutch chicks, even the BCLB ones, hatch with wild type chipmunk stripes, but these have not. Very odd indeed!

And I am certain (being the breeder) that the male is 100% Blue Cream Light Brown. I have only ever bought pure Dutch from breeders of pure Dutch (some people cross OEG into their Dutch, I have never done so, nor have the people from whom I bought birds back in '04.)

So I feel very certain that the bloodlines on these weirdly colored birds are all C/BC, which obviously had some weird hidden gene, or somehow lost their igig. A puzzle indeed.