Serama or Kapan? Let's discuss!

[Heather08]

The orgional birds sent to the us were of lesser quality then what is used in country of origion , however the genetics for correct birds are in the DNA of the birds sent over and there are birds being produced that look very much like birds of origion. How people select and have the ability to practice breeding selection dictates how correct their flock is. Just like breeding horses like AQHA, a halter horse looks nothing like a hunter jumper, but if you go back in the pedigree , they are all the same parentage, jsut changed by selection. Or in dogs , a working GSD looks nothing like a show ring GSD. Understand? Your flock is what you select and commit to breed. They come from the same origions, they change by your selection. I have very malay looking birds , i live in the US.

 

[TimSchmelling]

Yes, kapan are in serama. But so are many other breeds. Do you have the Thai miniture hen, any katik? Can you bake a good cake with just flower and water? How many people here are producing "serama looking" birds that are under 300 grams and are consistently that size and able to reproduce? Why not? Because we don't have all the proper DNA. The birds were not just lesser quality, they were a different breed.

Yes, you can breed these american kapan to resemble serama. I could breed OEGB to a serama-like standard. But they are still not serama.

Serama John has both. Read his posts on his cross matings. After all the years "American" birds have been around, the biggest jump he ever made in their improvement was breeding them to his Malaysian birds. Why? because it rapidly reduced the content of kapan genes.

Don't be afraid of this truth.

 

[TimSchmelling]

There is another telling sign. Claims of good birds, but no matching photos and weights. Why are we not getting these birds in pictures and showing them if they are so nice?


Pic after pic are of nice birds. But nice kapans.

 

[YB192004]

I am curious, should you be posting pics of what you have and what have you done for the Serama since you said you are a world wide promoter of the Serama?? I believe most EU & US serama breeders do aware of what we have and are willing to work on improvement of the breed with what we have available to us. There is an old saying “anyone can breed down a good line of birds, it takes a real breeder to improve any line of birds”. I have seen pics of Julia Reese’s birds (UK serama breeder), Heather’s birds (US serama breeder) and many more of the US breeders; theirs might not be 100% Malaysians type serama as we all seen from Malaysia but darn close to being one. Like most have said the genetics are there, it’s up to us breeders to recognize them and breed them into our flock to get where we want to be. Just like cooking, you can cook anything if you have all the ingredients.

 

[YB192004]

I am trying to bring this away from the other thread, so I will post this here...

On the other thread, the ASA California rep asked me what a kapan was. This is demonstrative of the missing knowledge I am talking about.

edited by staff

Btw, I am ASA California Rep, I don't think we ever discuss this subject. Here is pic of my breeder; I know I am way behind Heather, Julia and many others in our quest for Malay type serama.

 

[TimSchmelling]

The UK did import some serama , true serama, direct from Malaysia. They do have all the ingredients. In the US, the few true serama did not proliferate and hence we are missing many pieces.

The bird pictured above is a good serama-typed bird, yet the overall proportions are wrong. Still very much Kapan.

There are two dwarfing genes missing (one was talked about by an early serama breeder in the US, believed to come from the Thai miniture hen, the other is also seen in the Ohiki, so that gene is in the US and produces shorter legs without being the creeper lethal gene).

The above bird, what does he weigh in at in grams?

 

[TimSchmelling]

I am unsure why the people breeding the kapans are so afraid of discussing the topic, revealling bird weights, etc. Are there no breeders of these birds with the genetics background to understand the issues? Do people just like pretending these are show birds? Is it easier than truly breeding great birds?

 

[froggiesheins]

folks try this website for yourselves www.malaysianseramabantams.com

Thank you for posting this birdmaniac...
There are two types of serama;

Ayam Serama [Gallus gallus] and Ayam Kapan [Gallus gallus] SAME genre tho.

 

[TimSchmelling]

ocseramas, try not to be so angry. Your group is always so angry and hurling insults. This is why you have had 25 different club officers a week and constant new groups forming. I know you like pretending serama are show quality, I read your tag line. It is fun to play serama breeder. But the facts are what they are. You can make any assumption you want, it just is best you don't get all nasty. The SCNA has been that way far too long.

I have never said anyone can not love the birds they have. kapan are a great breed to, which is why I find it so odd that in the U.S. people pretend they are serama when they are not. Love the breed, just stop pretending they are serama.

As fo serama and kapan being gallus gallus??? All chickens are gallus gallus. You are saying all chickens are serama! This is the lack of knowledge I am talking about. This is the heart of the issue. I understand why people refuse to want to hear the truth. It is hard to learn you were duped and spent lots of money on a bird that cost 50 cents in Malaysia. But don't kill the messenger.

 

[TimSchmelling]

Here is another example:

I want to make Showgirls. So I go out and I buy a bunch of silkies. I can't find any turkens, so I just breed my silkies toward the showgirl standard. Do I have all the right genetics? Nope. So why should I then call my silkies "showgirls"? They are still 100% silkies. And the American serama is still a kapan. A kapan bred toward a different standard sure, but until you pick up the missing pieces, it will always be a kapan.