Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Windrider]

Shad, I don't recall if I've seen it mentioned on this now-very-long thread, but if any of the hens in your care become broody this spring, will they be allowed to hatch their eggs? I know you don't own these chickens so it may not be your choice, and given the conditions maybe you wouldn't want more there. But with all this talk about whether the batts will even go broody, or if it would take more generations to breed out the excessive egg laying, etc, it would seem somewhat tragic if an outlier broody batt isn't allowed to attempt to do the ultimate real chicken thing. Of course, it would probably be Matilda or Cloud who goes broody, but we can root for it being Lima!

 

[Perris]

I don't know what source you were reading, or when you were a teenager, or whether recommendations are different in different countries.

I've lived in the USA my whole life, and I've seen many sources, over quite a few decades, that consistently recommended 4 square feet per chicken (sometimes broken down as 4/3/2 square feet for large/small/bantam breeds.)

I'm sure Shad will have an answer to this, but I suspect the difference is based on different meanings either side of the pond of what we mean by the word 'coop'. Here it means the small house that the birds roost in, and does not include the run or wherever birds spend their waking hours. There it seems to mean the place they may live day and night.

 

[Shadrach]

Shad, I don't recall if I've seen it mentioned on this now-very-long thread, but if any of the hens in your care become broody this spring, will they be allowed to hatch their eggs? I know you don't own these chickens so it may not be your choice, and given the conditions maybe you wouldn't want more there. But with all this talk about whether the batts will even go broody, or if it would take more generations to breed out the excessive egg laying, etc, it would seem somewhat tragic if an outlier broody batt isn't allowed to attempt to do the ultimate real chicken thing. Of course, it would probably be Matilda or Cloud who goes broody, but we can root for it being Lima!

I would love to but there are so many problems.
The main problem is this. One can't study natural behaviour in unnatural conditions. This has been a will be for a very long time I fear the problem with behvioural studies.
The beauty of the set up in Catalonia was I could get fairly close to natural conditions and still be able to observe them.
One of the Golden Comets was showing pre broody behaviour but her eggs were removed and that stopped.

 

[NatJ]

I'm sure Shad will have an answer to this, but I suspect the difference is based on different meanings either side of the pond of what we mean by the word 'coop'. Here it means the small house that the birds roost in, and does not include the run or wherever birds spend their waking hours. There it seems to mean the place they may live day and night.

That is a good point.

In the sources I've read, 4 square feet per bird is the space where the chickens sleep, lay eggs, spend some or all of their waking time, and have their food & water.

If these guidelines are meant for states with long, snowy winters then they are generally right to assume that chickens will have NO outside access, for months at a time. (And if the space is adequate all winter, then it is presumably adequate in summer too, so a run is not really required at all, just a nice thing to have in the summer if you can.)

But if you are in a climate where outdoor access is possible all year long, then 1 square foot per bird probably is adequate for sleeping-only space.

 

[Shadrach]

I don't know what source you were reading, or when you were a teenager, or whether recommendations are different in different countries.

I've lived in the USA my whole life, and I've seen many sources, over quite a few decades, that consistently recommended 4 square feet per chicken (sometimes broken down as 4/3/2 square feet for large/small/bantam breeds.)

For more nuanced guidelines, I can offer quotes from two chicken books with very different publication dates, but neither is exactly new. One is meant for backyard flocks, the other for commercial farmers.

From 1976: "If you plan to raise large breeds at least 4 square feet will be needed for each bird, and bantams should have not less than two square feet each. Of couse, if the chickens will be confined to the coop for a great part of the time, they will need more room; allow ten square feet for each large bird..."
(Chickens in Your Backyard, by Rick & Gail Luttmann)

From 1925:
"The smaller the flock, the more floor space is required per hen. Ten hens might need 6 to 8 square feet per bird; while 125 hens might be kept profitabley with an allowance of 3.2 sq. ft. per hen."
(Practical Poultry Management, by James E. Rice and Harold E. Botsford)

(I can't check most of the other books I used to read, because they are not new enough to be in my local library, but not old enough to be out-of-copyright and posted online. But I clearly remember that 4 square feet per hen was always the default for the ones that didn't bother to give more nuanced guidelines.)

Unfortunately the books I would reference are in storage along with the rest of my possessions.
The first book on this page is one of them.
https://vicvet.com/shop.php

 

[NatJ]

Unfortunately the books I would reference are in storage along with the rest of my possessions.

That would certainly get in the way of quoting them!

The first book on this page is one of them.
https://vicvet.com/shop.php

The first book I see on that page is called, "Diseases of Free Range Poultry."

The ones I've read are usually assuming confined chickens (at least confined for the winter).

I can see that chickens who go outside all day, every day, all year long, probably are fine with less space in the coop, so maybe that is why you were seeing recommendations for less space than what I've seen.

 

[Shadrach]

That would certainly get in the way of quoting them!


The first book I see on that page is called, "Diseases of Free Range Poultry."

The ones I've read are usually assuming confined chickens (at least confined for the winter).

I can see that chickens who go outside all day, every day, all year long, probably are fine with less space in the coop, so maybe that is why you were seeing recommendations for less space than what I've seen.

I have zero experience with confined poultry in over 20 years of looking after chickens (until this lot of ex batts) and yes you've got the right book though I think mine is the second edition.
I wouldn't keep confined chickens unless perhaps it was a pair of game fowl in a massive run.
My main interest in chickens has always been in their "natural" behaviour and how the more uncommon breeds are kept in various parts of the world.
My belief is that until we have a better understanding of the chickens natural behaviour we are not really in a position to judge what confined conditions are humane.
Many would dissagree with me no doubt.

 

[RoyalChick]

That is a good point.

In the sources I've read, 4 square feet per bird is the space where the chickens sleep, lay eggs, spend some or all of their waking time, and have their food & water.

If these guidelines are meant for states with long, snowy winters then they are generally right to assume that chickens will have NO outside access, for months at a time. (And if the space is adequate all winter, then it is presumably adequate in summer too, so a run is not really required at all, just a nice thing to have in the summer if you can.)

But if you are in a climate where outdoor access is possible all year long, then 1 square foot per bird probably is adequate for sleeping-only space.

I have understood it differently. I thought it meant 4sf for where they sleep and lay eggs and in addition you needed 10sf for them to wander around.
I far exceed that even when mine are confined to the Chicken Palace but that is what all the research I did before starting to build told me.

 

[BY Bob]

I have understood it differently. I thought it meant 4sf for where they sleep and lay eggs and in addition you needed 10sf for them to wander around.
I far exceed that even when mine are confined to the Chicken Palace but that is what all the research I did before starting to build told me.

My coop provides more than 10 sq feet per bird in case I forced to lock them in because of weather conditions for a day or so. I have not yet had to do so but I need to be able to do so without them begin too confined.

This is not how Shad would have his tribe live but where I live I have to be prepared for such an eventuality.

 

[NatJ]

I have understood it differently. I thought it meant 4sf for where they sleep and lay eggs and in addition you needed 10sf for them to wander around.
I far exceed that even when mine are confined to the Chicken Palace but that is what all the research I did before starting to build told me.

Yes, that is the common advice on this forum, and I also see it in many other places at the present time. For keeping a small backyard flock, that seems to work fairly well.

But for just keeping the chickens alive, laying, and not pecking each other badly, they are often fine at 4 square feet of space each (that is floor space, so roosts and nestboxes must be above the floor or otherwise not part of that measurement.) I think that must have been a common guideline for commercial hens in the US at one point, based on how many places I found it repeated for how many years.

Of course none of these numbers will resemble the almost-wild conditions Shad likes to study, and they are mostly based on keeping chickens alive, not keeping them happy.