Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Perris]

the theoretical stuff which suggest that Polish are homozygous well all the other smaller crests are heterozygous. I have seen some small variation in crest size

this provokes the thought, what, size-wise, counts as 'full' crest? I was assuming Killay was homozygous because he has a relatively large crest (relative to the Swedish Flowers and the hybrids here), but your earlier explanation for Gwynedd's lack of crest suggests he's heterozygous. But his crest is significantly bigger than others who I would consider to have partial/heterozygous crest.

Edited to add, is there an element of dosing here, as with some other genes?

 

[Perris]

if you are chosing which eggs to hatch it could never be considered a landrace, right ?

I don't know. I choose to try to ensure that each pullet/hen gets a chance to reproduce her genes and those of whoever she mated with, rather than to continue a particular trait. Would that be landrace or not? I'm trying to put Darwin in the driving seat while maximising everyone's chances.

 

[Perris]

Have you ever thought about making a family tree?

Yes, several times

Could be fun!

No it isn't. It's a nightmare

if you know the parents

I never know the dad, and with multiple roos there are too many options for my poor brain to juggle

as far as I can find right now the spur growth is not connected to the double spur genes

Hens sometimes sporting a single spur pops up as a curiosity on BYC posts occasionally. It would be nice to have an explanation for it if one is available...?

 

[Mother of Chaos]

Yes, several times

No it isn't. It's a nightmare

I never know the dad, and with multiple roos there are too many options for my poor brain to juggle

Hens sometimes sporting a single spur pops up as a curiosity on BYC posts occasionally. It would be nice to have an explanation for it if one is available...?

What about creating only a maternal family tree? Maybe that would help you see patterns emerge.

Although if your broodies sit on other hens’ eggs, even that could get fraught.

 

[Skyeknight]

this provokes the thought, what, size-wise, counts as 'full' crest?

My current hypothesis, which I derived an hour ago, is that the crests breeds carry can be considered homozygous. Since breeds need to breed true, if those crests are not homozygous 25% of chicks should lacks a crest. I currently assume it's similar to that one paper showing broilers from 1957, 1978 and 2005. When actively selecting for bigger crests in roman times they would have crossed individuals with homozygous crests, but those are small compared to today's standards. Those primitive smaller homozygous crests are probably the crests we see today in the Brabanter and Spitzhauben. The Polish is simply the 2005 broiler in terms of crests.

I don't know. I choose to try to ensure that each pullet/hen gets a chance to reproduce her genes and those of whoever she mated with, rather than to continue a particular trait. Would that be landrace or not? I'm trying to put Darwin in the driving seat while maximising everyone's chances.

This means you are actively selecting who gets offspring and not nature. If you have hens that will never get broody they will still have offspring and those offspring will still get offspring. Meaning traits that are disadvantageous in a natural environment are not selected against.

 

[Perris]

Although if your broodies sit on other hens’ eggs, even that could get fraught.

That is the norm here. It's only those who make secret nests and don't then get donations who have just their own eggs under - and those eggs have all been predated, so nature selects against it to date.

 

[Perris]

My current hypothesis, which I derived an hour ago, is that the crests breeds carry can be considered homozygous. Since breeds need to breed true, if those crests are not homozygous 25% of chicks should lacks a crest.

have you tested this against Swedish Flowers, which can have full, partial, or no crest, which are considered a landrace, and which consequently lack a standard?

 

[Perris]

If you have hens that will never get broody they will still have offspring and those offspring will still get offspring.

but this happens in nature; chickens are one of those bird species that live in groups and don't mind donations from other hens in their nests (there are a few keepers here whose broodies are notorious for gathering as many eggs as possible from wherever/whoever possible!).

 

[Skyeknight]

have you tested this against Swedish Flowers, which can have full, partial, or no crest, which are considered a landrace, and which consequently lack a standard?

I have not tested anything yet. They do not breed true and we do not know their genetic make up, so I think there are better control groups to be found.

Also I completely forgot about vaulted skulls. I guess no one would happen to have some Polish crossbred skulls lying around? would love to see if vaulted skulls are co-dominant. Still wouldn't completely explain the smaller getting crests, right? Cause I feel there would be more known if vaulted skulls existed in some co-dominant form. Perris what crested breeds have you used?

but this happens in nature; chickens are one of those bird breeds that live in groups and don't mind donations from other hens in their nests (there are a few keepers here whose broodies are notorious for gathering as many eggs as possible from wherever/whoever possible!).

That's true, I wrote it mainly as an example of a disadvantageous trait. But as far as I know a landrace also needs to exist in isolation for quite some time, so getting fresh genetics is going against creating a landrace.

 

[Perris]

Perris what crested breeds have you used?

Only the SFH - starting in 2017 with one full crested male and one partially crested female - and the single Araucana full crested female. The Rhode Island Red, Norfolk Grey, Welsummer, Barbezieux, Penedesenca, and Leghorn, each of which came in in successive years, were all uncrested.