She said/He said Who's right? Who's wrong? No one!

[AmyPaperlady]

Quote:
I don't (or rather, my husband doesn't, since I just use his) and I only just got the Kindle app on my phone when sideWing posted the first ebook. You actually click the "Purchase" button (I triple-check the price listing before I do, to make sure the price is still $0.00)

 

[Ravynscroft]

So many good points tonight from so many good people... great discussion, everyone... had a lot I was gonna quote and comment on, but think I'll skip it now and just add my 2 cents, lol...

Assisting is hard, so is knowing when and how to assist... also, yes, whether you can assist properly without doing more harm than good... you have to decide what you are or aren't comfortable with... and whether the gamble is worth the odds...

Too many variables to just be able to say whether you should always assist or never... types of birds, waterfowl, etc... types of bators... issues during incubation... shipped or not... and whether each one truly has the will and fight to keep going or not...

Life is Chaos... we can never predict exactly how each hatch will go or what each little life will do... I've had assists do well and others not... I had a chick hatch out 3 days late from a bator left on and forgotten, lol... and broody eggs rescued, not knowing due dates and chicks hatched at 22% humidity without issues...

All we can do is our best and hope for the best... pick out the cleanest, most even eggs to incubate and keep our flocks as healthy as we can... we can't control others practices when we buy shipped eggs, so live and learn who is a good seller and who actually cares and isn't in it just for a quick buck... and pass on any info we feel is worth sharing... and even when it doesn't, just cuz you never know how another will see things from their perspective...

Share, teach, learn and respect others rights to their own opinions... that is why I love this thread and all the people on it...

 

[rossfam06]

Yes, I agree, breed from the strongest.  But... this is where my opinion differs from main stream.  By basing the definition of "strongest" on hatching performance, we're only looking at a very small sliver of the pie.  And, I'm in no way saying that folks who let the chick who needs help out of the shell die are NOT looking at the whole pie.  I know that most of the folks who are hatching eggs are also culling within their flock, so they are constantly looking to see who stays to play in the gene pool an other year, and who goes.  So much criteria to look at, even for the back yard breeder with a barn yard mix.    

So, hatching performance is a small, but important piece.  The question that I continue to ask is this:  By letting the chick die in the incubator, are we truly culling our flocks for future hatching strength?  Common sense says yes.  Now, look a bit further, and ask, "Why is this particular chick having difficulty getting out of the shell?"  I'm left questioning my skill at providing artificial incubation that matches the needs of the chick all the way from embryo to hatchling.  At best, it's an artificial means.  We all know that a "good" Mama Broody does it best.  Even a Mama broody who's never seen a chick before, never incubated an egg before is capable of hatching eggs in far less than ideal circumstances.  If Mama got a parade for successful hatches, she'd be getting one with every clutch she sets, I imagine!  So, I have an inferior incubator, I make mistakes, errors in judgement, temps and humidity are not always perfect.  For that matter, we most likely still don't know what perfect is.  Then, look at the eggs:  genetic flaws... hopefully, those are the ones that die no matter what we do.  Then, there's nutrition.  I tried an experiment where I had my flock on supplemental vitamins in addition to high protein.  I figured that would improve my hatch rate, right?  WRONG!  Worst hatch ever!  Chicks did great right up to lock down.  Then, I had the highest percentage of DIS ever.  IMO, these chicks had too much of a good thing going.  They grew too big to be able to position for a good hatch.  So, I'll continue to be of the opinion that a chick that is the result of an assisted hatch, CAN grow out to be an important contributor to the gene pool.  It's no fault of the hen who laid the egg, or of the chick if he's too big for the container he was given to grow in.  It's no fault of the hen or the chick if the temp or humidity is off, and he ends up being glued, or delayed.  Just as human babies sometimes need to be delivered by cesarean deliveries, and they sometimes need to spend time in NICU, that does not mean that they are genetically inferior.  We've all heard of the NICU baby who goes on to be a foot ball star, or is smarter than all of her class mates!  

So, I'll remain red.  I'm early in my hatching career.  I may shift to the blue side in the future, and I absolutely understand and respect the "Don't interfere.  If the chick is not strong enough to hatch, I won't assist, and I won't have to cull a little fluff ball later when he has problems."  I truly respect that!  But, I'll continue to assist as needed.  I'm thankful that all of the chicks that I've assisted have gone on to grow well.  24 hours later, I can't tell which chick was assisted, and which one was not.  

That's a good thought Friday. I don't really know...

This will be more popular with the ladies, not so much with the guys, but I kept thinking about what Ruby said, so when I got home, I opened him up more. And more. Ok, he's out of the egg. Still breathing. I mean, if I have to cull him eventually, then so be it. But everything looks fine except a little opening where the sac gets drawn in. Feet, wings, legs and all. One eye isn't quite as open, but it was the one on the side of his head that was still inside the egg. So he is now in a bowl, under a light, warming up, and drying out. He took a couple of sips of water too. So we will see...

And Ross, you are right. I actually should thank hubby because I'm not worrying that I will have to ask him to do it. I'm doing this on my own, so it is what it is.

I've been "reading the mail" here for a little while now, about the troubles various folks have had with chicks not being able to break out of the shell, and I gotta wonder if perhaps those particular shells are just too thick, for whatever reason. I haven't had any experience with chicken eggs hatching yet, but I've lost a few quail that couldn't make it out, and it seems to me their shells were somewhat thicker than normal. Or, perhaps, the membrane is just too tough. Diet? Minerals in their drinking water? Who knows> Certainly not I.

My very first assist turned out to be my Australorp hen. Not only did she grow to be a strong healthy girl, but one of my best egg layers.My last hatch this season was my first hatch from eggs from my own chicks. I had 4 of her eggs in there. They all hatched healthy and strong and are growing great.  I've kept my mouth shut all day on this topic because I feel very strongly about it and it comes down to personal opinion and choice.  The reasoning that a chick needs help in the first place is the biggest key to it's chances. If it is a late hatcher from bad incubation-delayed hatch due to low temps then I would agree that the chances are pretty high that it'll be a weak chick and possibly die after hatch or need to be culled. A chick that is shrink wrapped or malepositioned, with no other health problems might die in the shell because we've created less  than optimal conditions and have caused nature to put them at a disadvantage. That same chick can be helped to hatch, become strong with good care and be a productive part of the flock. If a chick is struggling and you do nothing and it fights all day tiring itself out and weakening it's body to the point of fatigue and failure does that mean that that chick would have died regardless?? No, it means the odds were against them and they couldn't overcome them without help. How do you know that with just a small effort on our part that the chick may have been perfectly fine? We all know this is one of SC's and my biggest differences. And we all know that many people won't help chicks and for many reasons be it "culling" is possible and sucks, they breed to perfection and a chick that can't hatch on it's own doesn't meet the requirement, whatever.  I just can't see watching a chick struggle without at least giving it a chance. SC has few assists that haven't had to be culled, my experience is just the opposite, I've never had an assist I had to cull and only one that died after being helped over a week later of digestional complications.
I think to be fair you can not look at all assists the same. Another thing that should be considered is the ability of the hatcher that is doing the assist. If the assist is even being done right. I've read so many posts where the "assistant" went in with no idea and had they known what they were doing might have had a different outcome.  I'm not saying that everyone should assist, I just think the idea of assisting is as jaded as opening the bator during hatch. 

Awww. I think he proved some strength by staying alive all day without heat. It's so hard to know what would have happened if... If you didn't candle and see the pip, or opened the shell, would he have hatched? Who knows. That's what's hard for me with stepping in. Because I know that as soon as I do intervene, I'm pretty much in it for the long haul because I altered the natural process. Everything with hatching is designed so perfectly and precisely. By opening an egg and adding a little more oxygen, the whole design is then altered. I had read another post awhile back about someone taking part of the shell off and the chick was doing good but to much oxygen made the chick get too sticky and then it couldn't turn or push out. So that's why I was thinking that. I hope he/she pulls through. As Sally Sunshine said in her guide to assisted hatching, you're giving it a chance to live. It may die but at least your giving it a chance that it might not of had otherwise.

I totally agree with not going in before an external pip or until it's been pipped for 18 hours at least!  I don't consider those who literally go in after the chick before it makes it's pip red. They are ORANGE. That goes beyond red. I can handle hearing someone put a "safety pip" in an internally pipped chicks air cell cause it's been over 24 hours. (Though I have never done this.) But I cringe with some of the "assisting" I see on the threads. I guess we all have a line that we set to place value on the viability of an unhatched chick and mine is it has to pip and be pipped at least 18 hours. (Unless there's obvious distress prior.)

All of these are great in showing how each of you and myself differ in our techniques for assisting. If I gave an internal pip by day 22 but no external pip I will jump right on in and help that bugger out. I want to give all of them a fighting chance. Yeah it sucks if they die but...I have not yet had one with special needs...ie. blind, one leg... I do think that shell thickness can be a factor. My ogye and Hmong Eggs were very thick. They could hardly manage to break a small external pip. Then of course one was pipped the wrong end so I was assisting from then on. But the other egg did not change in 24 hours with just a small hairline crack. So I went to work. And I am so thankful. Both chicks survived and are doing great!!!! Check them out.

Hanging out with a 9 week old I hurt today. But she likes it and they do too!!

 

[AmyLynn2374]

All of these are great in showing how each of you and myself differ in our techniques for assisting. If I gave an internal pip by day 22 but no external pip I will jump right on in and help that bugger out. I want to give all of them a fighting chance. Yeah it sucks if they die but...I have not yet had one with special needs...ie. blind, one leg... I do think that shell thickness can be a factor. My ogye and Hmong Eggs were very thick. They could hardly manage to break a small external pip. Then of course one was pipped the wrong end so I was assisting from then on. But the other egg did not change in 24 hours with just a small hairline crack. So I went to work. And I am so thankful. Both chicks survived and are doing great!!!! Check them out.



Hanging out with a 9 week old I hurt today. But she likes it and they do too!!

I've only had one with special needs and that was due to delayed development because as a newbie I wasn't smart enough to check my brand new thermometer. (That was my big learning curve right there.) And he hatched out day 24. I didn't even know that there was anything wrong with his leg until he got bigger and heavier. Then I noticed how off his balance was. I was wondering why he didn't roost, but didn't think too much of it. Once I got the second coop finished and put the younger ones out there I decided to try him out there too. That's when I started to really realize exactly what his problem was. His "knee" joint is turned in. It didn't show and become apparent until he had gotten heavier. I never thought that he'd be able to go to the coop or be half as "normal" as he is. He surprises me daily with his strength and how well he functions. I am still concerned about what will happen this winter though as he can't roost with the rest.

I have a question maybe one of the long time raisers or genetics experts can chime in on. I never plan to use Peep, (my special needs roo) as a breeder, don't even think he can really complete the mating process even when he does try. BUT I am curious as to how birth defects from something such as a screwed up hatch due to low temps plays a part in genetics. Had he been incubated in the right conditions, chances are he would have been normal. Do defects from sub par incubation affect the actual genetic make up of the chicken and can it be bred down to offspring?

 

[Ravynscroft]

And then you have the ones that surprise the heck outta you... opened the bator to find this little kiddo sitting all proud... Araucana bantam from broody eggs with unknown due date...

Humidity when it hatched (yes, it's accurate, lol)...

And the egg it popped out of...

Life is Chaos...

 

[chicapee]

Just finished around 400 posts. I have been under the weather the past few days. I have been trying to keep up. Great discussions. Too many to multi quote and i am on my phone. Need big pc for that. And thats hard to do when supine.SC did another brilliant parade loved it. My girl is my ring tone for Imogen she is my youngest daughter that lives in England. Congratulations wv, great hatch!

 

[FridayYet]

And then you have the ones that surprise the heck outta you... opened the bator to find this little kiddo sitting all proud... Araucana bantam from broody eggs with unknown due date...



Humidity when it hatched (yes, it's accurate, lol)...



And the egg it popped out of...



Life is Chaos...

What a little cutie - and such a pretty egg color!

 

[kwhites634]

I've only had one with special needs and that was due to delayed development because as a newbie I wasn't smart enough to check my brand new thermometer. (That was my big learning curve right there.) And he hatched out day 24. I didn't even know that there was anything wrong with his leg until he got bigger and heavier. Then I noticed how off his balance was. I was wondering why he didn't roost, but didn't think too much of it. Once I got the second coop finished and put the younger ones out there I decided to try him out there too. That's when I started to really realize exactly what his problem was. His "knee" joint is turned in. It didn't show and become apparent until he had gotten heavier. I never thought that he'd be able to go to the coop or be half as "normal" as he is. He surprises me daily with his strength and how well he functions. I am still concerned about what will happen this winter though as he can't roost with the rest.

I have a question maybe one of the long time raisers or genetics experts can chime in on. I never plan to use Peep, (my special needs roo) as a breeder, don't even think he can really complete the mating process even when he does try. BUT I am curious as to how birth defects from something such as a screwed up hatch due to low temps plays a part in genetics. Had he been incubated in the right conditions, chances are he would have been normal. Do defects from sub par incubation affect the actual genetic make up of the chicken and can it be bred down to offspring?

I'd say no, because his disability has nothing to do with the genes he's carrying (if I'm understanding your question properly); it came from an incubation error.

 

[chicapee]

I've only had one with special needs and that was due to delayed development because as a newbie I wasn't smart enough to check my brand new thermometer. (That was my big learning curve right there.) And he hatched out day 24. I didn't even know that there was anything wrong with his leg until he got bigger and heavier. Then I noticed how off his balance was. I was wondering why he didn't roost, but didn't think too much of it. Once I got the second coop finished and put the younger ones out there I decided to try him out there too. That's when I started to really realize exactly what his problem was. His "knee" joint is turned in. It didn't show and become apparent until he had gotten heavier. I never thought that he'd be able to go to the coop or be half as "normal" as he is. He surprises me daily with his strength and how well he functions. I am still concerned about what will happen this winter though as he can't roost with the rest.

I have a question maybe one of the long time raisers or genetics experts can chime in on. I never plan to use Peep, (my special needs roo) as a breeder, don't even think he can really complete the mating process even when he does try. BUT I am curious as to how birth defects from something such as a screwed up hatch due to low temps plays a part in genetics. Had he been incubated in the right conditions, chances are he would have been normal. Do defects from sub par incubation affect the actual genetic make up of the chicken and can it be bred down to offspring?

Well look at Stephen Hawking, he has normal children.

 

[FridayYet]

Well look at Stephen Hawking, he has normal children.

Can chickens get ALS? (Sorry, first thing that popped into my head...)