She said/He said Who's right? Who's wrong? No one!

[Ravynscroft]

I've only had one with special needs and that was due to delayed development because as a newbie I wasn't smart enough to check my brand new thermometer. (That was my big learning curve right there.) And he hatched out day 24. I didn't even know that there was anything wrong with his leg until he got bigger and heavier. Then I noticed how off his balance was. I was wondering why he didn't roost, but didn't think too much of it. Once I got the second coop finished and put the younger ones out there I decided to try him out there too. That's when I started to really realize exactly what his problem was. His "knee" joint is turned in. It didn't show and become apparent until he had gotten heavier. I never thought that he'd be able to go to the coop or be half as "normal" as he is. He surprises me daily with his strength and how well he functions. I am still concerned about what will happen this winter though as he can't roost with the rest.

I have a question maybe one of the long time raisers or genetics experts can chime in on. I never plan to use Peep, (my special needs roo) as a breeder, don't even think he can really complete the mating process even when he does try. BUT I am curious as to how birth defects from something such as a screwed up hatch due to low temps plays a part in genetics. Had he been incubated in the right conditions, chances are he would have been normal. Do defects from sub par incubation affect the actual genetic make up of the chicken and can it be bred down to offspring?

Theoretically, no... defects that happen from an outside source are not genetically passed down... although, there is theories about continued breeding of 'outside faults' eventually becoming genetic defects able to be passed...

But, it is extremely hard to guarantee that defects or faults are not from genetics in the first place... so for breeding forward a healthy generation, those 'should' be passed over in favor of more whole stock...

My shipped egg story...

I got a chance at some really nice rare eggs from a good, trusted friend... their stock is genetically sound, very healthy and she is a genetics whiz so I knew that what I was getting would be quality stock... after an initial shipping of eggs where the box got used for a rugby scrum, a secong batch was sent... to get odds weighed in our favor, the eggs were incubated until first veining and then placed under a dedicated Silkie broody... she did great and got 6 babies to hatch from 8 that started... one chick came out looking like it had had a stroke... literally... left eye was sunk in a bit, eyelid opening was smaller than it should've been and last 2 toes on left foot were useless... this is where we believe there is more damage done inside a yolk when shipped than we can see... also, with all my shipped eggs I always set my own eggs alongside as a control group... no issues in any of those chicks... and she had never had any chicks hatch in those lines with any defects... so... ??? Still won't use him for breeding, but he is a sweet bird and has a home with us for life...

 

[AmyLynn2374]

I'd say no, because his disability has nothing to do with the genes he's carrying (if I'm understanding your question properly); it came from an incubation error.

You're understanding correctly. lol That would be my thought. Assuming that I am right and the reasoning is completely the delayed development and hatch .

 

[chicapee]

Can chickens get ALS?  (Sorry, first thing that popped into my head...)

Who knows, they can get all kinds of weird diseases. Some hereditary and some not. I am sure they do have neurological disorders, I have a little one with neuro problems. Still hanging in there. She is back out with her hatch mates now. I think she is neurotic.

 

[AmyLynn2374]

Theoretically, no... defects that happen from an outside source are not genetically passed down... although, there is theories about continued breeding of 'outside faults' eventually becoming genetic defects able to be passed...

But, it is extremely hard to guarantee that defects or faults are not from genetics in the first place... so for breeding forward a healthy generation, those 'should' be passed over in favor of more whole stock...

My shipped egg story...

I got a chance at some really nice rare eggs from a good, trusted friend... their stock is genetically sound, very healthy and she is a genetics whiz so I knew that what I was getting would be quality stock... after an initial shipping of eggs where the box got used for a rugby scrum, a secong batch was sent... to get odds weighed in our favor, the eggs were incubated until first veining and then placed under a dedicated Silkie broody... she did great and got 6 babies to hatch from 8 that started... one chick came out looking like it had had a stroke... literally... left eye was sunk in a bit, eyelid opening was smaller than it should've been and last 2 toes on left foot were useless... this is where we believe there is more damage done inside a yolk when shipped than we can see... also, with all my shipped eggs I always set my own eggs alongside as a control group... no issues in any of those chicks... and she had never had any chicks hatch in those lines with any defects... so... ??? Still won't use him for breeding, but he is a sweet bird and has a home with us for life...

Awww. That's a sweet conclusion to sad predicament.

 

[FridayYet]

Who knows, they can get all kinds of weird diseases. Some hereditary and some not. I am sure they do have neurological disorders, I have a little one with neuro problems. Still hanging in there. She is back out with her hatch mates now. I think she is neurotic.

I bet she's cute though!

That goes back to what Ravyn was saying, about do we really know where "faults" came from? I have a Wheaten Ameraucana that I helped along when she stopped halfway through zipping. She was a stargazer and I called her "neuro chick" for the first several days after hatching, since she held her head up to the ceiling until she fell backwards. She came out of it, not sure if it was the supplements I gave her or not, and now she seems to be developing a roach back but otherwise healthy.

Was it genetics? Shipping damage? Problems with the parent stock? Not enough O2/CO2 exchange due to the change in altitude? Who knows. What I do know is that she will not be used for breeding since I don't know if it will be passed on or not.

 

[Ravynscroft]

What a little cutie  - and such a pretty egg color!

Thanks... no idea now which one it is, but probably the one giving me major 'tude now, lol...

I'd say no, because his disability has nothing to do with  the genes he's carrying (if I'm understanding your question properly); it came from an incubation error.

You're understanding correctly. lol That would be my thought. Assuming that I am right and the reasoning is completely the delayed development and hatch .

And you both said that magic word... assume... we all know what it really means, lol... best bet is to err on the side of caution, I feel...

Can chickens get ALS?  (Sorry, first thing that popped into my head...)

Who knows, they can get all kinds of weird diseases. Some hereditary and some not. I am sure they do have neurological disorders, I have a little one with neuro problems. Still hanging in there. She is back out with her hatch mates now. I think she is neurotic.

I think they are just as susceptible as any other species in getting their own defects, anomalies, etc... we have so many in humans because WE are the anomaly in nature... not saying whether right or wrong, just an observation... nature lets the weakest fend for themselves in most cases... we fight for survival through thick and thin... and find as many ways as we can to compensate for deficiencies in any form... is it right or wrong, nobody else can tell you, those are personal decisions...

I bet she's cute though!

That goes back to what Ravyn was saying, about do we really know where "faults" came from?  I have a Wheaten Ameraucana that I helped along when she stopped halfway through zipping.  She was a stargazer and I called her "neuro chick" for the first several days after hatching, since she held her head up to the ceiling until she fell backwards.  She came out of it, not sure if it was the supplements I gave her or not, and now she seems to be developing a roach back but otherwise healthy.

Was it genetics?  Shipping damage? Problems with the parent stock? Not enough O2/CO2 exchange due to the change in altitude?  Who knows.  What I do know is that she will not be used for breeding since I don't know if it will be passed on or not.

Very good points... I do agree if we cannot, beyond any shadow of doubt tell for certain, then err on side of caution...

 

[WalnutHill]

I bet she's cute though!

That goes back to what Ravyn was saying, about do we really know where "faults" came from? I have a Wheaten Ameraucana that I helped along when she stopped halfway through zipping. She was a stargazer and I called her "neuro chick" for the first several days after hatching, since she held her head up to the ceiling until she fell backwards. She came out of it, not sure if it was the supplements I gave her or not, and now she seems to be developing a roach back but otherwise healthy.

Was it genetics? Shipping damage? Problems with the parent stock? Not enough O2/CO2 exchange due to the change in altitude? Who knows. What I do know is that she will not be used for breeding since I don't know if it will be passed on or not.

I suppose I am fortunate as I do eat so many of my birds as a matter of routine. I incubate far more than I need to hatch, I hatch far more than I need to raise, and I raise far more than I need to keep. This allows me to select the best of the best of the best of my birds, and utilize the others in a wholesome way (not like the mass disposal of male layer breed chicks).

I don't treat it much differently than setting seeds in spring. I may only need 12 tomato plants, but I will plant a flat. The biggest and strongest go in the best growing area, with the biggest tomato cages. The next best go into the front garden, which gets only afternoon sun, tending to dwarf the plants. The rest are planted at the edges of the compost pile, where the higher nutrients allow them to compete in production with the better plants.

 

[FridayYet]

I'm getting to be more that way, albeit on a much smaller scale. Decisions have to be made as to who goes and who stays, since I have a chicken cap I won't go over. I want to raise the best birds I can, but my smaller numbers means it will take much longer and is a bit more personal - since they all get names and I grew up getting food from the supermarket neatly wrapped in plastic.

Culling is hard, but each extra cockerel I process is one less bought from a CAFO and I feel good about that. I give them a great life, and a quick death and appreciate the nourishment they give me.

 

[Ravynscroft]

I suppose I am fortunate as I do eat so many of my birds as a matter of routine.  I incubate far more than I need to hatch, I hatch far more than I need to raise, and I raise far more than I need to keep.  This allows me to select the best of the best of the best of my birds, and utilize the others in a wholesome way (not like the mass disposal of male layer breed chicks).

I don't treat it much differently than setting seeds in spring.  I may only need 12 tomato plants, but I will plant a flat.  The biggest and strongest go in the best growing area, with the biggest tomato cages.  The next best go into the front garden, which gets only afternoon sun, tending to dwarf the plants.  The rest are planted at the edges of the compost pile, where the higher nutrients allow them to compete in production with the better plants.

Very good analogy... we have our 'meat' birds as well... and lots of space for 'pets' too... so in that, we are very fortunate...

I'm getting to be more that way, albeit on a much smaller scale.  Decisions have to be made as to who goes and who stays, since I have a chicken cap I won't go over. I want to raise the best birds I can, but my smaller numbers means it will take much longer and is a bit more personal - since they all get names and I grew up getting food from the supermarket neatly wrapped in plastic.

Culling is hard, but each extra cockerel I process is one less bought from a CAFO and I feel good about that.  I give them a great life, and a quick death and appreciate the nourishment they give me.

That one sentence says so much... I feel very strongly in that aspect... we all have different ways of culling, whether rehome or food, but as long as life is respected and appreciated I think we are all right in our own ways...

 

[Cynthia12]

I'm sorry to bother, but have to ask..I missed out somewhere..what is this red..purple thing? I am red..I am purple??

I have helped many a chick out. I know when it's time now, after all these yrs. of hatching, when it's best. In fact, I'm starting to think I will be going in on some silkies eggs that are in lock down right now. Normally, I have pips the day before the due date. If I am not seeing anything at this time, I usually go in. Someone mentioned legs..that's soo important to get those legs up after they have been assisted. I try and get them both up at the same angle once I get to the whole body part..taking my time getting there first.