She said/He said Who's right? Who's wrong? No one!

[WalnutHill]

Have you ever showed any of your gorgeous birds?

 

[RubyNala97]

Man, more ayam cemani misinformation, sigh. This is the person who I talked about before who said that there were three lines in the US that were named by where they originated, one of which being Indonesia...where it is illegal to import from. The one that also said that all 'American' line birds were bad quality and hybrids.

The poster finally responded (and didn't tell me if they bred them, which I had asked) and said that the line they were referring to that was such bad quality was TMA! I thought maybe he meant Mike Bean, but nope, he meant TMA, which is preposterous. And then he said that when the 'gold rush' was going on, people were crossing the lines (of course they were, for genetic diversity) to create higher numbers, and now there are a ton of 'hybrids' in the market.

According to this logic, every single chick from my eggs is a hybrid, because my rooster is TMA line and apparently bad quality. This rooster here.

And sorry again for venting in here - there aren't many other places I can. The actual cemani thread is pretty darn dead.

I come from a big Italian family, I love a good vent session!! Lol. What does TMA stand for? It's hard when someone talks down about something that your passionate about and have spent a lot of time studying and researching. Where is this person claiming to get their information from?? I'd want to know their references otherwise it's just opinion...and you know what they say about opinions! Someone contacted me yesterday on FB & sent me a link to their "breeder page" and they breed AC in Pennsylvania, which is not far from us. I always think of you when AC's come up. I'll send you a link if you want to check it out. Don't let this person get to you. You know much more then them!

 

[Pyxis]

Have you ever showed any of your gorgeous birds?  

Thanks for the compliment! I haven't shown them - I was going to take them and my WH drakes to the fall show in Cobleskill but I ended up not doing it due to the bird flu scare up here. Next year though!

I come from a big Italian family, I love a good vent session!! Lol. What does TMA stand for? It's hard when someone talks down about something that your passionate about and have spent a lot of time studying and researching. Where is this person claiming to get their information from?? I'd want to know their references otherwise it's just opinion...and you know what they say about opinions! Someone contacted me yesterday on FB & sent me a link to their "breeder page" and they breed AC in Pennsylvania, which is not far from us. I always think of you when AC's come up. I'll send you a link if you want to check it out. Don't let this person get to you. You know much more then them!

TMA stands for Tonie Marie Austin - she had imported some of these guys before the big import ban and was pretty much letting them live land race, not really breeding for any particular trait, but they still stayed pretty black. The person in PA may be MaranFarmer - I know he's in PA.

 

[WalnutHill]

There are very, very few breeds of chickens that have never had an influx of blood from another breed. It's human nature to try to improve what already exists.

Breeding to preserve a single characteristic, such as the complete and total blackness at the expense of all other traits can only lead to long term genetic flaws that will be even harder to correct farther down the line when a limited gene pool is available.

So the question comes down to what makes an Ayam Cemani an Ayam Cemani?

I have no info about this group but it appears they are pushing for APA acceptance and a SOP. https://www.americanayamcemanibreedersclub.com/proposed-ayam-cemani-standard-of-perfection.html

 

[Pyxis]

I'm a member of that group - I almost ended up the head of the NY state division but my district leader never got back to me on whether I am or not so

But that's very true about few breeds not having new blood bred in. In fact it's better for the breed's genetic diversity down the line. And you're always, in all other breeds, supposed to go for type and form over color - "You can't paint the barn until you build it" is what is commonly said. In this breed the blackness is played up so much that it is a DQ if the bird has any leakage. But you still have to be careful not to drive the breed into the ground. I currently am selecting for color, of course, but also egg production anda few other things. I think egg production was why they were allegedly crossed out to leghorns with the Mike Bean line. They still look rather leghorn-ish in type and have the leghorn flopped over comb. I have one hen from that line.

 

[Tina1972]

Tina, you ought to post new pics of your setup. I'm jealous

I really need to take some new pics. I got 3 tons of sand last week for the run and the chicks are loving the coop.

 

[WalnutHill]

I'm a member of that group - I almost ended up the head of the NY state division but my district leader never got back to me on whether I am or not so

But that's very true about few breeds not having new blood bred in. In fact it's better for the breed's genetic diversity down the line. And you're always, in all other breeds, supposed to go for type and form over color - "You can't paint the barn until you build it" is what is commonly said. In this breed the blackness is played up so much that it is a DQ if the bird has any leakage. But you still have to be careful not to drive the breed into the ground. I currently am selecting for color, of course, but also egg production anda few other things. I think egg production was why they were allegedly crossed out to leghorns with the Mike Bean line. They still look rather leghorn-ish in type and have the leghorn flopped over comb. I have one hen from that line.

The only reason to increase the rate of lay would be to increase marketability. Jungle fowl and other wild types are generally seasonal layers, which would certainly make it hard to mass produce them.

http://www.cemanifarms.com/2013/10/ayam-cemani.html

The bottom of this page tells of the Indonesian version of Ayam Cemani and sounds much more like a native jungle fowl than the American interpretation. But it's highly unlikely that the original will be adopted as the A.P.A. standard, it will be some version of the hybrid standard.

There are a few fibromelanistic breeds that could be used to expand the pool. As long as silkies are not part of that, selection could maintain a true type. Black Sumatra come to mind, or Hmong if black enough.

I'd go by throat color...if that is black, then the bird is a solid carrier.

 

[Pyxis]

I'm trying to increase rate of lay so that they can be useful for something besides yard candy, lol. I'm also trying to select for a less flighty personality since that's just what I prefer and as always for well behaved roosters. Of course I'm also trying to breed toward the standard too. It's hard work! My silkies and cochins are much easier, that's for sure!

 

[WalnutHill]

I think that the floppy comb is a detraction from the goal, and yes I believe that comes from Leghorn crossing. What percentage of your chicks grow out an upright comb? Do they still retain a black throat?



Don't worry, I make Easter Eggers without shame...I just don't call them Ameraucanas. I pick the best birds I can for my breeders, even though they themselves are crosses.

 

[FridayYet]

So glad there are people like you Pyxis, trying to make the breed better.

I love the fibro birds and had a chance at some Svart Hona eggs, but the timing was wrong. Been following threads on them for a couple years.

If I ever get some, they'll most likely be yard candy though.