show quality speckled sussex ??

[Moonlight Piano]

Everyone has such beautiful birds!!!! I have attained some show quality bantam specks from a friend of mine for my favorite price........FREEEEEEE !!! . They are very docile and my pullet is laying eggs, so the incubator is being prepared So glad to have this breed again, other than the partridge rocks they are the main reason that I got into poultry. I'll take some pics asap.

God bless,
Tyler.

 

[math ace]

Based on what I have read so far through this thread, almost caught up, I have more questions!

I am very interested in the correlation between weight and age at POL. My thoughts behind that are: 1) if the birds are taking longer to start laying they are still growing and putting on muscle mass, 2) muscle mass should mean larger/heavier birds, 3) those that are at POL earlier may be lighter and of the more eggy/layer type or commercial/hatchery, 4) and if these suppositions are indeed true they may give us hints to breeding a larger more correct body type bird.

What do you all think about that?

Right off the bat, I would say no correlation....
My SS birds are smaller and do not lay great.
I have delawares and marans that meet the SOP weight standard and lay better than the lighter SS that I have.

 

[math ace]

Is this Gary in CA? If yes, do you know what part? I might be willing to drive to CA or southern OR for some SQ SS!

Gary is on the East Coast... I believe in Ohio.

 

[math ace]

Are they just called toe punches? Are they called anything else?

Would the tools be called anything else to make the slits or just really good sharp scissors? At what age do you perform this marking? I know I try to tattoo calves by three months of age but that is also a restraint issue. I'm thinking at hatch? More info please!

Sorry, you did not get a response earlier. I believe Snowbird does them when they are young, ie newly hatched. I do not use toe punches at all.
If you look back a couple of posts, I posted what Snowbird sent me about toe punches and slits. Sorry, I can't be of more help.

I think it is important to mark them for identification purposes. When Snowbird use to hatch, he hatched hundreds of birds at a time. I only hatch a few dozen at a time. Normally, I have a few different breeds in there the incubator at one time. Zip Ties just work for me. . . . I do move onto numbered leg bands, but not until about 15 weeks of age. Before that, you really can't tell much about the chick anyways.

With Zip ties, I can use one color to indicate the sire.... I can use another color to indicate which hatch they are from. . . I can use another color to indicate if they are possible keepers or culls..

So one one bird. I might have three leg bands ON ONE LEG...
A blue one to identify roo A or a Yellow one to identify roo B
A orange one to identify Jan hatch or a Black one it identify February hatch
A green one to say KEEPER or a Red one to say CULL

If I put ALL three leg bands on ONE leg....
Then on the other leg I could put JUST ONE leg band to identify the individual chick from that hatch....
A Blue One for chick 1
A yellow one for chick 2
A orange one for chick 3
A black one for chick 4
A green one for chick 5
A red one for chick 6....

MORE chicks....
TWO blue ones for chick 7
TWO yellow ones for chick 8
TWO orange ones for chick 9
TWO black ones for chick 10
TWO green ones for chick 11
TWO red ones for chick 12.

JUST an example of how I make the zip ties work for me. I just find that I can tell MORE with the color coded zip ties and I can see it from a distance.
You can get REAL CREATIVE and it is a temporary marking system.

OBTW, ZIP TIES are incredible items to have around the house.... I use them for so many things, that I am just about out and hatching season is almost upon us.
I had better start shopping for some...

 

[cowchick11]

Darn out on two Math Ace! Well just was working through a theory on the one. I did read back and the original reply was to toe punch on hatch day. Because I am not doing individual matings yet I may only mark what roo they are out of.

Do you have a purpose for marking the hatch order?

Where do you get all of your zips? I usually buy a mixed can each year for show season and use them for everything like baling twine and duct tape! Do you use different sizes as they grow or always the small ones? How often do you have to replace them so as not to hurt the chick's legs? Do you just cut them with wire cutters? I don't use the numbered bands until later but have different sizes and colors for that purpose and younger ages.

This thread has been great so far and has inspired me to study my SOP more. Plus I like this marking information as I see several ways to combine/mix/match them for lots of combos. Thank you for sharing your system!

Pam

 

[math ace]

Darn out on two Math Ace! Well just was working through a theory on the one. I did read back and the original reply was to toe punch on hatch day. Because I am not doing individual matings yet I may only mark what roo they are out of.

Do you have a purpose for marking the hatch order?

Where do you get all of your zips? I usually buy a mixed can each year for show season and use them for everything like baling twine and duct tape! Do you use different sizes as they grow or always the small ones? How often do you have to replace them so as not to hurt the chick's legs? Do you just cut them with wire cutters? I don't use the numbered bands until later but have different sizes and colors for that purpose and younger ages.

This thread has been great so far and has inspired me to study my SOP more. Plus I like this marking information as I see several ways to combine/mix/match them for lots of combos. Thank you for sharing your system!

Pam

ZIP TIES - - I get from the electrical section of Home depot or Tractor supply. DO NOT but them at the dollar stores... Those don't work worth a lick!

I don't mark the order that the chicks hatch.... Just each individual chick. I do that if I am doing a photo study. One of the best ways to learn something about your flock is to do a photo study. MARK each chick with it's own zip tie. Then take pics of all the chicks every couple of weeks. You will QUICKLY observe some things about your stock... This is especially true in a breed like the SS that has many color changes between day old chick to maturity stages.

ZIP ties have to be changed has the chick grows. Just cut them off with a pair of scissors. Reband them with new zip ties and cut off the extra plastic. Leave a little grow room on each band. Check them every couple of weeks and replace as needed. You don't want them so tight that they cut into the chicks legs. I usually have to replace mine three times from birth to maturity ( around 5 months of age).

 

[3riverschick]

Based on what I have read so far through this thread, almost caught up, I have more questions!

I am very interested in the correlation between weight and age at POL. My thoughts behind that are: 1) if the birds are taking longer to start laying they are still growing and putting on muscle mass, 2) muscle mass should mean larger/heavier birds, 3) those that are at POL earlier may be lighter and of the more eggy/layer type or commercial/hatchery, 4) and if these suppositions are indeed true they may give us hints to breeding a larger more correct body type bird.

What do you all think about that?

Hi Cowchick,
You're about 2/3 right. But the ghost in the machine is fat, not muscle. Read this booklet. It will explain a lot of your questions. William White Broomhead was widely known for his literary style in explaining the why's and how's of breeding poultry in an "everyman" style. Like he did in this Light Sussex missive. William White Broomhead was an internationally respected poultry-man in the first half of the last century. He wrote greater part of the Light Sussex Standard. He edited Volume 2, Part 4 of the 1901 edition of The Poultry Club standards.
Here is a sketch about him done by renowned poultry-man William E. Rice.
http://tinyurl.com/84d7x62
National poultry magazine: Volume 9, Issue 9 - Page 49 - 1911 -
Sketches of British Judges
No. 1—Mr. William White Broomhead
Written by WM. E. RICE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poultry Club in Britain decided that it would be good for the various breeds to
issue booklets about what the breeds should look like. A common sense exposition
of the official Standard. Unillustrated. Basically a conversation about what a breed
should look like for the novice. At this time, there was a great interest in purebred
birds by the masses. World War I was over and folk on both sides of the pond were
being encouraged by their governments to choose poultry as a money making
endeavor. Many people taking up the challenge were unversed in the technical
language of the poultry world. The Light Sussex was chosen for the very first booklet.
So here we have an eminent poultry-man ,author of most of the LS Standard,
discussing in common terms the points of the Light Sussex. Such wonderment.
One very interesting part of this is an explanation of why the Sussex is close-feathered.
The Light Sussex. (London, 1921), by William White Broomhead
(page images at HathiTrust; US access only)
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009169678

and a second interesting read:

This book came from the library of Onley Kent, Sr. , another renowned poultry-man.
Mr. Kent wrote a book, cited below called:
"Breeding".
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009170142
A fascinating look at breeds and what makes them different from each other. In it, there is
a snippet on the shape of the feather. How the shape of the feather affects the bird. He
writes the longer narrower feathers show up on the slower maturing breeds. The shorter,
more rounded feathers show up generally on the faster maturing breeds. Take all the double mating info with a grain of salt. That was then.

Best Regards,
Karen Tewart
Waterford Sussex and Marans, western PA, USA

 

[3riverschick]

While we are on the subject of research and putting all the pieces together....here are some notes and cites on my study of feathering. As we know, the Sussex is a soft-feathered, close-feathered breed. I think it's fascinating how the texture of the skin; type of feathering; mass of bone; and rate of feather growth combine ( in whole or part) with the body structure dimensions to effect the amount of fat and the rate of lay in the birds.


High egg production by individual hens, pens and flocks: a complete guide to ...
By Homer Wesley Jackson, Grant M. Curtis
http://tinyurl.com/br7r7oy
Pages 17 thru 23
Egg Type and Capacity
The Different Characters Most Commonly Associated With Heavy Production
Are Here Described—Prominent College Workers, Breeders and Judges,
Join in Stating Just What They Understand "Egg Type" To Be, and How It
May Be Secured in Different Breeds Without Antagonizing Present
Standard Requirements
-------------------------------
Familiar science & fancier's journal, Volumes 3-4
Pages 184 and 185
POULTRY BREEDING FOR PROFIT.
Every breeder of poultry ought to ask himself in which one, out of many directions, he is to look for his profit, and then answer the question plainly and clearly, and thence proceed to work to arrive at the goal marked. Some persons prefer Bantams and take their profit out of their prettiness. Others select handsomely plumagcd birds as ornamental additions to their grounds, others pay absorbing attention to the delicacy of the flesh, while many sink everything, and look alone to a large quantity of eggs; and betwixt them there are enough of conjunctions to suit all tastes. But as I find from observation that the practice of keeping a lew fowls for their eggs, is largely on the increase, and would receive a tremendous impetus if the popular notion—viz., " that every egg costs a sixpence "—was shown to be the result of utterly injudicious movements, and as, further, I find that as education and knowledge increases, so people become more and more averse to "killing and eating," especially those reared by themselves. I will, with your permission, make some observations on beautiful birds for egg-laying purposes, in the belief that it will be found of interest to the majority of households.
It is a fact which stands out in marked prominence, that in the British climate the black breeds are the best producers of eggs. This arises from the fact that as the amount of sunshine in England is rather scarce, the wearers of black coats profit more therefrom than those with white ones. Inversely, in climates where the heat is oppressive and produces suffering; as, for instance, in Queensland, the white breeds—as for instance, the Leghorns—are foremost. The black breed of cattle in Scotland, the dark chestnut horses in England, and the black pigs of North Europe, are all instances of the fact, viz., the survival and preeminence of the fittest for the climate, for those who in cold climates profit most by the sun, turn up, for a variety of reasons, each contributing its quota, the most profitable to keep. Black poultry, on the other hand, are not in favor with poulterers, who prefer white legs, white feathers, and bodies whose juiciness has not all departed with the eggs laid. Now, as a man cannot serve two oppositely-minded men, he has to make up his mind primarily whether he will go in for eggs or the flesh. Of the black breeds the Spanish lay the largest eggs, but not so many as the black Minorcas. The black Hamburghs lay a rather lesser number of smaller eggs, while the black Cochins lay also a large egg, but not many, owing to not having as yet lived long enough to hare completely shaken off this breed's propensity to properly hatch ail batches of eggs laid.
TIGHT OR LOOSE FEATHERING.
Some time ago I purchased some colored Dorkings, whose grandparents emanated from a luxurious home in an aristocratic quarter, and about the same time I purchased some silver-grey Dorkings, whose grandparent was one of Baily's hens, and hence had lived in open quarters. As to age and size they were about equal, but I do not think if I had tried my utmost, and of set purpose, that I could by any possibility have had two sets of pullets more diametrically opposed to each other, for, while the colored Dorkings were soft and loose, or open-feathered birds, the silver-greys were hard and close-feathered—so beautifully closefeathered that at a little distance it was difficult to distinguish where one joined another, and as tightly fitting and as close to the body as a lady's glove on her hand. On arrival, and in my ignorance, I admired the colored Dorkings the most; but when the weather began to get cold a marked difference was immediately observable, and which increased. In short, the colored Dorkings in cold weather resembled an East Indian black in the streets of London on a frosty day—blue, shivering, and chattering, and always aiming at warmer quarters, while the silver-greys walked about in utter defiance of slush, sleet, and snow, and as comfortable as English lads frolicking on the ice. The colored Dorkings eat fully one-third more food, and do not lay more than one-fourth of the eggs. Since December, when the silver-grey Dorkings commenced to lay, up to the present time, they have laid every other day generally; besides this they have frequently laid numbers in daily succession, and occasionally I have had more eggs than birds, i. e., two in one day. I do not believe that even the black Minorcas could have beaten the silver-grey Dorkings during the last six months, whatever happens in the other half of the year. These are in truth splendid layers, and their food is plain and substantial, viz., barley, Indian corn, buckwheat, vegetables, and household scraps.
In every respect they fare alike, but notwithstanding that the point of color is in favor of the colored Dorkings, they are the most unprofitable birds that ever belonged to me, while the others, on the contrary, are most profitable, and all the difference lies in the closeness of the feathers. This closeness of feather should not be confounded with abundance of feather, for I have some Cochin hens, aud the close-feathered birds lay more than the loose, open, and very abundantly-feathered ones. I now attach more value to close and tightly-fitting feathered birds than to color, and firmly believe by strict attention to that main point (not forgetting the others) to be able to defend the Dorkings against all comers. Modern breeders, in their desire to improve the size and color of the Dorkings, have done it in such a way as to deal a severe blow to the reputation of this splendid breed of fowls. For the purpose of being able to produce large cockerels and pullets at the autumn and winter shows, they have resorted to an artificially created warm temperature, so as to hatch a brood of chickens as near to the 1st of January as possible. This being done for some generations, loose-feathered birds is the result, and a very moderate supply of eggs the consequence. A remarkably large Dorking pullet which I purchased for my best trump card, laid the fewest eggs of any hen I ever had, and ultimately died from congestion or inflammation, produced by moderately cold weather. No bird commencing the summer with a decent constitution could have been more unprofitable, and in the way of food she was a glutton. When this bird arrived, our family circle broke out in raptures, and particularly in this direction: "What beautiful soft feathers 1 like touching some lady's muff!" Being densely ignorant on the matter, I of course was equally delighted, but did not mourn for her when she went the way of all flesh. When I hear (or see in print) some breeders saying that much depends on the character of the soil—dry, gravelly, and chalky, in contradistinction to any other combination of geological materials—whether Dorkings flourish or not, I think of my damp and altogether unlikely place, and my closely-feathered Dorkings, and marvel at the great number of the most diverse opinions which can be held on any given thing, when the real and all-important point is altogether ignored. Of course the best place for birds which are bred up in hot-houses is a tropical country, but if English breeders want the large population of the British Islands for customers, they must breed to suit their requirements, and not for very exceptional customers in the neighborhood of Timbuctoo, which perhaps would have suited the large pullet spoken of. Notwithstanding that the black breeds arc generally the best egg-layers, yet in this climate it is better to have a close feathered white bird than a loose-feathered black one,
and which is the reason why, here and there in this country, we hear of white Dorkings, Cochins, Leghorns, and Minorcas, laying better than darker-colored birds. I am very sorry, indeed, to see breeders virtually sacrificing closeness of feather for the sake of having early broods in some cases, and large birds in others, by resorting to an artificially-produced warmer climate, for closeness of feather once gone, or more properly a shunt having been given towards looseness of feather, cannot be again, in my opinion, attained by the same stock. To obtain closeness of feather, such breeders would have to commence dc novo with stock birds already possessing that indispensable qualification towards abundance of eggs. If we take two boys, one black and one white, and expose them to the influences of very cold, frosty weather, when stark naked, and for a number of days in succession, they will both die with, perhaps, a day's difference between their ends; and this quite irrespective of whether the one stood on a dry, chalky soil, and the other on damp ground. And what I am astonished at is, that the infinitesimal should be made so much of, and the momentous should be ignored as something of very little value.
SHOULD CHICKS BE FED MEAT?
Another point which I have determined is, that though meat does not enable a hen to produce more eggs, yet that meat,
or too much smashed bones, do positively stunt the growth of chickens. If we look upon young calves, horses, etc.,
we find that in about two years from birth they have grown to enormous creatures, have laid on much bone, muscle,
flesh, and fat, and that to their maximum extents, from grass alone. This stands them in the same stead as milk to
a babe, containing everything necessary for their die and rapid growth. Some years ago a gentleman, a keen sportsman,
kept a parrot in his dining-room, and one day I said to him, '■ Why don't you give it a bone to pick; they are very
fond of bones?" "No," he said; "itruffies their feathers, their gloss departs, and they then smell greatly, I should
not be able to keep it in this room." I find the same thing also with chickens. Any one can try the experiment. Let
him take half the chickens from one brood, and give plenty of meat to the one half, and none at all to the other half.
He will find that those with meat will arrive at maturity earlier, but at the expense of size. After that birds bare
arrived at full maturity, then plenty of meat, with plenty of green stuff, will enable the hens to produce plenty of
eggs. Almost as I withhold green meat the eggs in quantity begin to fall off, for this reason, that they have not the
wherewithal to supply quickly the necessary amouut of "the white" accompanying the "yolk." I also find boiled barley
(i. t, the grain in the husk), shelled oats, and a small quantity of crushed bones, very good food for chickens. I
find that the thing constantly recommended by you—viz., oyster shells broken up— far better than lime in the water,
which after a time acts inflammatorily, and brings on liver complaints and deaths. Though the thing lacking in soft
eggs and quick-growing chickens is lime, yet the thing wanted by the birds is phosphate of lime. Lime acts something
like mild caustic, and ought to be carefully avoided. Nothing is equal to oyster shells, or crab and lobster shells
. They ought, for adult birds, to be broken up not smaller than peas. I dare say many of your readers may have observed
that in a dark room the backbone from say a codfish, when stale, is luminous. In this we have phosphate of lime,
the thing wanted, and not pure lime, which, as I have said, acts like caustic, and produces mischief with the internal
organs.—J. F. D., in Live Stock Journal.
not unless the F should be an H, nuts.-John Henry Drevenstedt (Leghorn breeder cira 1911)
-------------------------------
A living from poultry, Issues 120-134
By Michael K. Boyer
Buff Plumage ( Karen: This buff he discusses is not the same hue or genotype as Sussex Buff. The interesting parts are about the feathering itself)
By I.M. Asbjeld , lcester, So. Dak.
Excerpt:
Page 89
The subject of Under-Color has caused many arguments in the show room as well as in the press, some say it makes a good Lird better, while others would say it should only be considered when all other things are equal in placing the awards. From my personal experience as a breeder of Buffs and making many experiental matings and a close study of the laws of animal breeding I find that under-color is one of the very most important characters to be considered in the mating of Buffs to produce the desired shade that will hold its own. The ideal undercolor in my breeding pens is that of a Buff that is very near the same shade as the surface color, being very rich and mellow, having a rich golden brilliancy.
Shafts of feathers must be pure Buff on both sides, the entire length of the feather. This last named character is something that is hard to get, but it is very important if we expect to eliminate the light colored shafting which we see so often, even in some of our best Show rooms.
In our study among the wild birds, we find that in so many cases the under-color is what we poultry fanciers would call a foreign color to the surface color. This we have wondered at many times, that the surface color could breed so true with such an under-color of a foreign make up. Is it because the wilJ birds are of nature and that our Buffs are the creation of man with the aid of nature and that is why we have to depend upon the proper under-color if we are to produce Buffs that will hold their own and reproduce these characters to their offspring? In wild bird life we find that the greatest difference in the under-color from that of the surface color, can be found in the birds having the most close and hard feathering, while the greatest harmony in surface color and under color is when ths birds are loose feathered.
This has proved itself in our Buffs in many cases. Ths breast feathers of the males are as a rule quite close and hard, with under-color of a rather light shade, while the same bird may have a wonderful under-color of the body, where the tendency is to be rather loose feathered. The Leghorns are what we term close and hard feathered and we find that the Buff Leghorns are not advanced in under-color like the rest of our Buff Breeds. Thus the laws of nature are that the greatest difference in the surface and that of the under-color exist in the birds having the most close and hard feathering.
--------------------------

Best Regards,
Karen Tewart

 

[cowchick11]

A lot of reading but when broken down has some good information.

The feathers being loose or tight is very interesting considering the various climates that we have around the U.S. Now I'll have to take a closer look at the different breeds we have (vs. what they should look like in the SOP of course). By looking at the various body parts as indicators I should be able to tell (as they get back into lay) which birds are laying heavier and compare that with feathers.

Thank you for the other reference materials as well. I am working to become a 4-H and FFA poultry judge at this point and maybe someday an APA judge. So I like random information that is about poultry and it usually leads me down the trail of another question or five!

Thank you as well for the zip tie info. Understanding better what the individual number is for tracking purposes, got it!

I will try to look at my older girls, in the day light (not sunlight according to the weatherman) tomorrow to see if they are ready for picture day yet. Egg production is on the rise so they should be getting close.
Thank you,
Pam

 

[culler]

Hi All, just a few thoughts on things I see listed on the thread.

If you want more Muscle on your SS feed a ration higher in protein and you will accomplish that.

Keep in mind when reading the Book quotes that they are mostly English Sussex related and are really not in any way connected to the APA SOP.

When you decide to be a real chicken breeder you will want to move up to Marking your chicks with the Web method. If you want most can have a marking for each hen you have as there are 80 different ways to mark with the slit and punch method and you will never have to worry about mark coming up missing.

The USA SS are considered close feathered, but would not hurt them to open the feathering just a little.

If anyone has questions now would be a good time to ask them.