Shrink wraped

[casportpony]

Quote: I lost two this way... They make their initial pip, start to zip just fine, but mine continued turning and not breaking the shell and suffocated. when I went to assist their beaks were about 1/2" from their last pip though the shell. Make sense?

-Kathy

ok, well I thought zipped meant that it has externally pipped ( through ) the shell ...hence the zipper look to the shell as the chick is working it's way out . In that case once the chick has made this external pip then it has air and it would not suffocate. Photo below of what I thought was meant by zipped.
http://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/P2180001-11.jpg
Yes, that's what it means to me, too, but two of mine started to "zip" then kept turning and didn't manage to zip. The zip in their shells looked like this, but they kept tuning without breaking the shell and their bodies covered the already pipped part and they suffocated. Make sense now?

From: http://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/P2180001-11.jpg


-Kathy

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Kathy,your elevation from sea level could explain your 15-18% being a better weight loss than the prescribed 11-13%. It's strange chicks can zip but then suffocate when fresh air is available to them. I've never seemed to have peacicks die from too high humidity or drowning in their shell. I think part of this is actually the membrane and fluids already present inside the eggs and when it's time for the peachicks to start drawing in this fluid, it just doesn't occur fast enough,or there is too much of it around the beak area and the chick instead of getting air sack air,is actually inhaling liquid that still has not moved away from the large end of the egg as it should. If you ever help a peachick out that has pipped normally you will notice if you try to help it too soon there is still dark red blood present in the upper part of the egg,close to the airsack and beak. Of course you immediatedly stop peeling the membrane and if you wait several hours and try again you should see less,or hopefully no more deep red blood in the same area. But as you continue to break the shell closer to the pointy end sometimes you still get the deep red blood. The blood farthest away from the chicks umbilical gets drawn in first and I'm assuming the embryonic fluids are drawn in the same way,farthest away first,which would be by the beak or top end of the egg.

 

[casportpony]

Kathy,your elevation from sea level could explain your 15-18% being a better weight loss than the prescribed 11-13%. It's strange chicks can zip but then suffocate when fresh air is available to them. I've never seemed to have peacicks die from too high humidity or drowning in their shell. I think part of this is actually the membrane and fluids already present inside the eggs and when it's time for the peachicks to start drawing in this fluid, it just doesn't occur fast enough,or there is too much of it around the beak area and the chick instead of getting air sack air,is actually inhaling liquid that still has not moved away from the large end of the egg as it should. If you ever help a peachick out that has pipped normally you will notice if you try to help it too soon there is still dark red blood present in the upper part of the egg,close to the airsack and beak. Of course you immediatedly stop peeling the membrane and if you wait several hours and try again you should see less,or hopefully no more deep red blood in the same area. But as you continue to break the shell closer to the pointy end sometimes you still get the deep red blood. The blood farthest away from the chicks umbilical gets drawn in first and I'm assuming the embryonic fluids are drawn in the same way,farthest away first,which would be by the beak or top end of the egg.

The four I lost last year all had tons of fluid in their shells, but the ones I just lost were *perfectly* dry, they just kept rotating, but not zipping and their bodies block off their original holes. If I had been watching closer I could have saved them.

Regarding the humidity... Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that people change how they incubate.

What I can suggest, which I think you have in the past, is to keep meticulous records and collect as much data as possible.

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Maybe this will help... Here is an egg with a pip. You can see the beak, but what happens if the chick rotates an inch but doesn't make anymore hole or cracks. With the two I had, their bodies were completely covering the opening, so they could not get air. Make sense?






-Kathy

 

[birdeo]

Maybe this will help... Here is an egg with a pip. You can see the beak, but what happens if the chick rotates an inch but doesn't make anymore hole or cracks. With the two I had, their bodies were completely covering the opening, so they could not get air. Make sense?






-Kathy

If their bodies were covering the hole and you could not see the beak then I would think they were malpositoned but in that photo you can see the beak so not the case with that one.
The only other thing I can tell at that stage is # 1, your humidity is prob. too low and they are shrink , it's extremely hard for them to break out of that situation on their own.
# 2. you are doing the " lockdown" which imho is not a good idea.
During the last few days of incubation those eggs NEED more oxygen.
I realize a lot of people won't agree with that train of thought but especially during the last few days I open the hatcher door many times a day for about 15-30 seconds at a time. This helps provide additional oxygen that they need desperately during that time. I also keep the vents open as much as I can which means I have to add a LOT of additional water pans to the hatcher in order to be able to keep the humidity close to 65-70% also, not to mention I have air going IN THE ROOM ( fans, air cleaner ) but to where no drafts are blowing right at my incubator and/or hatcher.

Here is a site that maybe will explain more about what I am saying.

http://msucares.com/poultry/reproductions/poultry_pipped.html

 

[birdeo]

Quote:
It basically has everything to do with the weight loss of the eggs, if anyone bothers to weigh them that is.
If they are not losing enough weight then you dry up your incubator parameters, if they are losing too much weight then you raise the humidity.
I just have gathered my humidity info. from several reliable sources on hatching peafowl eggs and don't bother to weigh them.
The 60% RH the entire time bumped up to the 65-70% in the last couple of days RH works very well for our peafowl eggs.
I think at 47% you would have excessive weight loss and the shrink wrap issues unless you have some very thick shelled non porous eggs .

Just to be clear, that was 47% until day 24 or 25, then the humidity was raised to 65-70% for the last two days. Four piped, zipped and hatched just fine at 47%/65-70%, but when the other four were eggtopsied, there were fully formed, ready to hatch chicks in fluid. To me that means humidity was too high, right?

-Kathy

Edited to add: This year I'm weighing my eggs and the ones that seem to hatch best have lost 15-18% since the date they were laid.
That would mean the humidity was too high for those particular eggs with the fluid left in the shells.
Could be those eggs were thicker shelled and less porous meaning they did not lose weight properly like the others .
13-18% weight loss is acceptable with 15 % being ideal ... with you keeping up with the weight losses this year you should be fine.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I have never adhered to the "lockdown" theory everyone else speaks of. You wait an entire year for this event to occur then are afraid to open the lid to see whats going on and to see if a chick needs help? Another thing,with eggs pipped this allows more moisture to be accumilated in the surrounding air inside the incubator. Birdeo, I agree 100% about the extra Oxygen needed. I used to fret and worry too much about egg weights,exact temps,correct humidity,ect. But if you look at what mother nature provides when a broody hen or peahen,guinea hen,whatever,all they are is a constant source of heat and cannot control the humidity levels in the small area directly underneath them. They are not in a confined,controlled enviornment,so why should we think everything has to be so-so to get a good hatchrate?
With my incubator out in the garage now humidity levels inside are determined more by the outside humidity,and here in Illinois we have very humid days,many in a row. Find this hard to believe or not but I have a digital temp-humidity probe inside this incubator and maybe only 4-5 days outta 24(days they are in incubator,moved to hatcher last 2-3 days) do I add water. Humidity levels are consistantly over 50%,,tonight it was 70% and there is no water in the pan. My homemade hatcher is a diffrent story. I have 6 fans circulating air inside a 2'x3'x2' space. It's like a wind tunnel in there and I only have one small vent hole for outside air. I have been keeping hunidity levels at no less than 65% while hatching is going on. Of course I open the drawers a lot but it helps having two glass panes over the top and a nice rope lite all around the top so I can easily see whats going on. I will use over 1gallon of distilled water per day in the hatcher keeping humidity levels this high.

 

[AugeredIn]

Yes, that's what it means to me, too, but two of mine started to "zip" then kept turning and didn't manage to zip. The zip in their shells looked like this, but they kept tuning without breaking the shell and their bodies covered the already pipped part and they suffocated. Make sense now?

We have eliminated this from happening to us by positioning the eggs on a surface that does not allow them to move around or roll during hatching. If the eggs can roll the chick has a hell of a time rotating and just wears itself out.

 

[AugeredIn]

Just to be clear, that was 47% until day 24 or 25, then the humidity was raised to 65-70% for the last two days. Four piped, zipped and hatched just fine at 47%/65-70%, but when the other four were eggtopsied, there were fully formed, ready to hatch chicks in fluid. To me that means humidity was too high, right?

-Kathy

Edited to add: This year I'm weighing my eggs and the ones that seem to hatch best have lost 15-18% since the date they were laid.

I don't think you can just say that you set the temperature at x, humidity at y and need to lose z% and expect a perfect hatch. You have to look at what is happening with each hatch and understand how temperature and humidity affect incubation and hatching. That being said, when we have a few birds that give up or fully develop but fail to hatch it is almost always cured by raising the temperature not lowering the humidity. If there is enough space in the top of the egg and it does not take much, a bird will pip. It will not drown.

By the way, we hatch dry in one incubator just like the new chicken incubating craze and hatch just as many using that method. It is the combination of temperature and humidity that counts. The amount of weight lost is a good indicator of success and failure though.

 

[birdeo]

I have never adhered to the "lockdown" theory everyone else speaks of. You wait an entire year for this event to occur then are afraid to open the lid to see whats going on and to see if a chick needs help? Another thing,with eggs pipped this allows more moisture to be accumilated in the surrounding air inside the incubator. Birdeo, I agree 100% about the extra Oxygen needed. I used to fret and worry too much about egg weights,exact temps,correct humidity,ect. But if you look at what mother nature provides when a broody hen or peahen,guinea hen,whatever,all they are is a constant source of heat and cannot control the humidity levels in the small area directly underneath them. They are not in a confined,controlled enviornment,so why should we think everything has to be so-so to get a good hatchrate?
With my incubator out in the garage now humidity levels inside are determined more by the outside humidity,and here in Illinois we have very humid days,many in a row. Find this hard to believe or not but I have a digital temp-humidity probe inside this incubator and maybe only 4-5 days outta 24(days they are in incubator,moved to hatcher last 2-3 days) do I add water. Humidity levels are consistantly over 50%,,tonight it was 70% and there is no water in the pan. My homemade hatcher is a diffrent story. I have 6 fans circulating air inside a 2'x3'x2' space. It's like a wind tunnel in there and I only have one small vent hole for outside air. I have been keeping hunidity levels at no less than 65% while hatching is going on. Of course I open the drawers a lot but it helps having two glass panes over the top and a nice rope lite all around the top so I can easily see whats going on. I will use over 1gallon of distilled water per day in the hatcher keeping humidity levels this high.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that way per lockdown , we agree on several things.
All eggs need excellent air flow the entire time of incubation.
Those eggs put off carbon dioxide when their cooking , opening the incubator door often for very short periods of time can help get extra oxygen to those eggs that the shell pores will take in...especially in the last few days .
It also helps prevent possible CO2 buildup .
A bird on her nest shuffles around , sometimes gets off the nest to possibly grab a quick bite to eat & drink or to just stretch ...she doesn't go into total lockdown mode.

You're so right about how ambient humidity can affect what goes on IN your incubator.
Practically everyone's situation is unique and the conditions in the area where the incubator is located can/will affect the the bator humidity and the temp, if the temp. in the room gets above 81 or so.
I have mine in a climate controlled room , am able to control the humidity & temp. in the room with an air conditioner and/or dehumidifier, without those I'd be at a loss for a good hatch .
If that room gets to/ over 82 degrees I can count on the bator temp. climbing a bit more than I'm comfortable with.
If the humidity in the room climbs over 72% or so then I usually need to get the a/c or dehumidifier going if the vents on the bator won't take care of the problem.
I also keep a wick on my stem thermometer for the wet bulb reading in addition to spot checking with 3 diff. digital temp/humidity readers.
It's a juggling act , has to be watched carefully .
Hard to imitate mother nature for sure but I'd rather be tweaking the room conditions & keeping it all in tune that way than constantly changing the incubator temp. and vents , like to get them set right in the beginning & not adjust those any more than necessary.