Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[aoxa]

I went and looked at your gallery. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that. So wings are one of the traits that can't be culled for early on. I'm glad to know that because I was close to letting go of some young chicks that might have turned out great

That's just my experience.. Even with split wing, I'd watch over a bit of time to be sure.. This would be before they would start laying/breeding anyway..

 

[peepblessed]

Here's what I mean about a discrepancy in the definitions:

ABA Standard definition for Split Wing "A wing so irregularly formed as to show a decided gap between primaries and secondaries, or primaries overlapping in reverse order." (P. 279) Here it seems to include both a definition for split wing AND slipped wing.

APA SOP definition for Split Wing: "One in which there is a distinct gap between the primary and secondary feathers, resulting from the permanent absence of a feather [and its corresponding follicle]...." (P. 12)

Where the two differ, and I have had many conversations about these definitions with numerous judges, including Walt Leonard, Chairperson of the APA Standards Committee, is that the APA SOP refers to the cause as being a missing axial feather. The ABA standard only refers to an obvious gap, regardless of whether or not there is a permanently missing feather. The distinction, in my mind, is that one is a genetic cause and the other has multiple causes (poor condition, molting, broken or temporarily missing feathers, etc.)

So, when there is a degree of difference between the two -- the SOP supposedly being a DQ only for the missing feather/follicle, and the ABA standard being a DQ for any gap -- which one do you go with? Obviously, I mean to consider this in terms of exhibiting bantam breeds only.

Hopefully you see what I'm talking about. This may seem like a trivial issue, but it's got more than a few of us questioning the true meaning of the term "split wing" versus how the term is used in everyday chicken conversations. LOL

When the judges don't agree you know this is a big problem.

Is slipped wing truly a genetic defect or is it due to a bird being fed too much protein while growing? I have heard both. What are your thoughts?

Has anyone else heard this?

I do have some personal experience with this! I raised two babies under a broody and two babies indoors from the same pair at the same time. It was in the dead of winter so even though the babies were indoors I kept them under a light for about 9 weeks. At that age they were easily twice the size of the broodies chicks and on the same diet. The indoor chicks developed heavy wing feathers and week wings that folded wrong (primaries over secondaries or affore mentioned angel-wing in waterfowl). I raised many, many chicks from this pair and never had anything close to this re-appear. Obviously, the indoor chicks were stuffing themselves day and night, while the outdoor chicks spent way more time sleeping. I now turn the lights out at 4 weeks.

One of my pullets in my juvenile BBS pen has started laying. My breeding hens have been moved to the barn and put under lights, so I wasn't sure if the egg I found was one that I had missed from them. Sure enough, I found another one yesterday (in the nestbox) this time and it was still warm. I had just missed it and I will have to stalk them today to see who it is! I am hoping it is my pretty little "true" blue or my splash that I showed you guys pictures of a couple of weeks ago. Either way, they are both pretty and correct. Yay!

So exciting!! My avatar girl just started laying also so I know the feeling!

 

[jrosemoore]

I like the discussion on weak wings. I was certain a few weeks back that my Partridge silkies had weak wings. They were only four months then. I was saddened and upset that I wouldn't have any show winners so I clipped the long, loose primaries. Funny thing is, as they grew back the chickens ended up tightening those wings up to their body. Now they sit nicely hidden. My theory is that pulling them early perhaps helped them develop the muscles to hold them up closer to their body. Or that the cold weather is making them hug their body tighter? Either way, I'm not sure it is a trait I want to deal with. They were raised in a brooder with a light above them all the time. Perhaps protein does have something to do with it too.

 

[Me & Jack]

When the judges don't agree you know this is a big problem.
I do have some personal experience with this! I raised two babies under a broody and two babies indoors from the same pair at the same time. It was in the dead of winter so even though the babies were indoors I kept them under a light for about 9 weeks. At that age they were easily twice the size of the broodies chicks and on the same diet. The indoor chicks developed heavy wing feathers and week wings that folded wrong (primaries over secondaries or affore mentioned angel-wing in waterfowl). I raised many, many chicks from this pair and never had anything close to this re-appear. Obviously, the indoor chicks were stuffing themselves day and night, while the outdoor chicks spent way more time sleeping. I now turn the lights out at 4 weeks.
So exciting!! My avatar girl just started laying also so I know the feeling!

One major difference between chicks brooded by a momma and those under the heat lamp is that the chicks with momma usually spend more time during those first few weeks in the cold than do chicks raised under a lamp, which spend ALL of their time under heat. At least the chicks with momma come out and wander around a fair amount. Being exposed to the cold makes them feather in more quickly, which might mean their muscles have to develop more quickly. Just a thought.

 

[dwegg]

Interesting...I have 10 chicks in the brooder and 8 chicks under momma in the garage...so should I then take out the food from the brooder at night and replace each morning?

 

[littlecritters]

When the judges don't agree you know this is a big problem.
I do have some personal experience with this!  I raised two babies under a broody and two babies indoors from the same pair at the same time. It was in the dead of winter so even though the babies were indoors I kept them under a light for about 9 weeks. At that age they were easily twice the size of the broodies chicks and on the same diet. The indoor chicks developed heavy wing feathers and week wings that folded wrong (primaries over secondaries or affore mentioned angel-wing in waterfowl). I raised many, many chicks from this pair and never had anything close to this re-appear. Obviously, the indoor chicks were stuffing themselves day and night, while the outdoor chicks spent way more time sleeping. I now turn the lights out at 4 weeks.
So exciting!! My avatar girl just started laying also so I know the feeling!

This is very interesting....you turn the light off at 4 weeks...but do you continue to leave a feeder for them all day/night?

 

[littlecritters]

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]DragonLady and Sonoran,
I know of breeders who use AI and then let the broody moms hatch the eggs. I know of other breeders who use natural breeding but collect the eggs to hatch and raise in an incubator. Have you seen any pros/cons or benefits to either method? The issue of slipped/split wing has made me question whether there is an association with the method of hatching and brooding?

 

[Adoravachick]

When the judges don't agree you know this is a big problem.
I do have some personal experience with this! I raised two babies under a broody and two babies indoors from the same pair at the same time. It was in the dead of winter so even though the babies were indoors I kept them under a light for about 9 weeks. At that age they were easily twice the size of the broodies chicks and on the same diet. The indoor chicks developed heavy wing feathers and week wings that folded wrong (primaries over secondaries or affore mentioned angel-wing in waterfowl). I raised many, many chicks from this pair and never had anything close to this re-appear. Obviously, the indoor chicks were stuffing themselves day and night, while the outdoor chicks spent way more time sleeping. I now turn the lights out at 4 weeks.
So exciting!! My avatar girl just started laying also so I know the feeling!

I can see how the indoor chicks would be much more "comfortable"....too comfortable? This is a very interesting observation. Thanks for sharing.

 

[blessedchick]

This is so interesting! I've often wondered what the advantages/disadvantages are of using a broody versus brooder. I have noticed that the chicks that are raised by my broodies tend to be more calm and friendly...no scientific evidence on that, just my observation.

I also turn off the light on my brooder at 4 weeks, mostly because they seem to be feathering out so well by that time that it doesn't seem like they need it. I turn it on at night if the temps drop too low (my brooder is in my garage where it usually stays about 20* warmer than outside). I leave the food in 24/7 and I have seen the little ones eating at night when the light has been off for several hours. I like to get the chickies outside as much as possible (natural vit D, fresh air, blah blah) so that is another one of the reasons I like to wean them off the light earlier - although last weekend when it was 75* they were all outside in their Rubbermade "travel brooder" with the light hooked up - couldn't pass it up!

Now I'll have to start keeping track of wings....hmmmm...so interesting!

 

[peepblessed]

This is very interesting....you turn the light off at 4 weeks...but do you continue to leave a feeder for them all day/night?

Yes. They wake up earlier than me and want to eat.