Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[bradleymount]

Lavender with lacing, don't have an adult pic yet. It isn't defined in silkies like it is in a normal feathered bird. Think of it as a fuzzy image.

It's so cute

 

[Tammylr]

It's so cute

I thought so, I have my three porcelains to a friend as I'm focusing on BBS and dominant white. I'm also working towards a standard sized silkie instead of bantam. Will keep some small but the bigger the fluff the better IMO.

 

[bradleymount]

I thought so, I have my three porcelains to a friend as I'm focusing on BBS and dominant white. I'm also working towards a standard sized silkie instead of bantam. Will keep some small but the bigger the fluff the better IMO.

Yeah I agree!

 

[Winterwolfbane]

I don't mean to butt in and not at all trying to be rude. Just trying to be helpful, so don't take me wrong. So excuse the intrusion/hijack.

Are we talking the blue genes or the lavender ones? It's harder to get lacing with lavender then it is with blue.

The Blue coloring and the Lavender coloring on a bird look a lot alike. But are entirely different genes. There are distinct differences in adult feathering too between these genes. However breeding to black will tell you what you have. If the one parent is blue (leaky dominate), should be both black and blue offspring. If the parent is lavender (recessive), all the babies will be black. It's really, really important not to mix blue and lavender. Because Blue works with gold, red and buff. Lavender won't. And it's a pain test mating birds to find out what is what.

Um, recessive white is recessive to black and blue, bird will be black or blue in color (white is hidden). Recessive white is a cleaner white. Dominate white, is dominate to black and blue and covers them, but is leaky and sometimes the black/blue shows through. It's also dominate to reds, but also will sometimes leak it too. Other colors that can be test mated to black to find out what it is.

Basing this on what I know about feather genetics and some breeding I have done myself. BLR with a white Silkie will give you solid blues and blacks, maybe with some red or white showing. (May run the gambit in calico looking birds with this cross?) White as in "silver", not recessive white. If you get solid white offspring from this breeding then it's most likely a dominate white. And BLR often don't carry recessive white to produce a "recessive white". So any silver would come from the Silkie. Which can be hidden by dominate white. To get any lacing you have to have two copies of the patterning gene, one copy may give you a incomplete lacing, but usually none at all in the F1's. Be hard to tell what you are looking at in a Silkie though, because of their feather mutation. You also pick up the genes for yellow legs/skin, a recessive for non-feathered legs, genes for Wyandotte typing and feathering. And get hybrid looking combs between the walnut and rose combs in the F1's. I'm not against out crossing to pick up traits at all. I've done it enough times myself, but you have to know what you're getting yourself into. (The genetics of the birds you are working with) And have a plan/goal beyond the first cross breeding.

Silkies are a hard to make certain colors on and patterns because of the feather mutation they have. And it takes more then one cross to get it. You also have to consider with out-crossing to pick up a trait. What other traits you will also pick up from that out cross from the non-Silkies. These may take a long time to get rid of, depending on what they are. Sorry for being a pain, just trying to help. Can tell me to shut up, I won't mind. LOL!

 

[Tammylr]

  I don't mean to butt in and not at all trying to be rude. Just trying to be helpful, so don't take me wrong. So excuse the intrusion/hijack.
   Are we talking the blue genes or the lavender ones?  It's harder to get lacing with lavender then it is with blue.

   The Blue coloring and the Lavender coloring on a bird look a lot alike. But are entirely different genes. There are distinct differences in adult feathering too between these genes.   However breeding to black will tell you what you have.  If the one parent is blue (leaky dominate), should be both black and blue offspring.  If the parent is lavender (recessive), all the babies will be black.   It's really, really important not to mix blue and lavender.  Because Blue works with gold, red and buff.  Lavender won't.   And it's a pain test mating birds to find out what is what. 

   Um, recessive white is recessive to black and blue, bird will be black or blue in color (white is hidden).  Recessive white is a cleaner white.  Dominate white, is dominate to black and blue and covers them, but is leaky and sometimes the black/blue shows through.  It's also dominate to reds, but also will sometimes leak it too.  Other colors that can be test mated to black to find out what it is.

     Basing this on what I know about feather genetics and some breeding I have done myself.   BLR with a white Silkie will give you solid blues and blacks, maybe with some red or white showing.  (May run the gambit in calico looking birds with this cross?)  White as in "silver", not recessive white.  If you get  solid white offspring from this breeding then it's most likely a dominate white.   And BLR often don't carry recessive white to produce a  "recessive white".  So any silver would come from the Silkie.  Which can be hidden by dominate white.  To get any lacing you have to have two copies of the patterning gene, one copy may give you a incomplete lacing, but usually none at all in the F1's.  Be hard to tell what you are looking at in a Silkie though, because of their feather mutation.  You also pick up the genes for yellow legs/skin, a recessive for non-feathered legs, genes for Wyandotte typing and feathering.  And get hybrid looking combs between the walnut and rose combs in the F1's.   I'm not against out crossing to pick up traits at all.  I've done it enough times myself, but you have to know what you're getting yourself into.   (The genetics of the birds you are working with) And have a plan/goal beyond the first cross breeding.

  Silkies are a hard to make certain colors on and patterns because of the feather mutation they have.    And it takes more then one cross to get it.   You also have to consider with out-crossing to pick up a trait.  What other traits you will also pick up from that out cross from the non-Silkies.   These may take a long time to get rid of, depending on what they are.   Sorry for being a pain, just trying to help.  Can tell me to shut up, I won't mind.  LOL!

Not at all, you provided great information. Mostly said what I said with more added to it. Yes, I'm sure that they are lavender and not blue, that's why I rehomed them as I'm going to work with BBS and my dominant white. I agree that recessive white and lacing wouldn't show f1 and you would show black and blue with maybe some red leakage. I don't work with red so I haven't looked at it much.

 

[Winterwolfbane]

Thanks, I was worried I would sound too much like a know-it-all.

Just have a lot of experience with feather color genes in a lot of breeds. Dominate white is a tricky color to work with and have clean looking birds. That don't leak black/blue or reds. Can breed something either silver with a pattern (Like Columbian, or black tailed white). Or recessive white to it to clean it up. I think an interesting thing to maybe try with dominate white, though you don't want to mess with reds, Is something like Red Pyle? Just a thought..... BBS is an easy one to clean up with just selection.

You know what I would like to see in a Silkie. Is a good clean Columbian, either silver or gold/buff. Something that breeds true and isn't full of random junk I wouldn't have to deal with later. Like eb or e+ genes. Not found any yet and may have to bite the bullet and make some? (Columbian cochin to black Silkie. F1 blacks to F1 blacks, should get 1 in 8 or better that turns up Columbian and Silkie feathered. Still a lot of selection involved.)

I have to admit most my breeding concerning lacing, have had mostly to do with Wyandotte. But it should follow suit the same way.
Using a black Silkie that is hopefully silver underneath. I think the way I would approach it. Is to use something more in body type and size as in SL Cochin bantam. All Silkies have evolved from a Cochin body type. All you have to do is look at the old wood cut type prints in the old standards to see that. I would keep it simple using SL to try to get a cleaner lacing look to the Silkie. Skip anything red/gold/buff with lacing until I could see if the lacing looked right on a Silkie in SL first. Still have to deal with comb genes and leg/skin color issues.
Then breed F1 to F1, hatch a ton, select birds that come closest to what I'm looking for and breed those together. Trust me it takes a good 5-6 generations to get "close enough".
Just throwing it out there.

LOL!

 

[Tammylr]

  Thanks, I was worried I would sound too much like a know-it-all.    Just have a lot of experience with feather color genes in a lot of breeds.   Dominate white is a tricky color to work with and have clean looking birds. That don't leak black/blue or reds.  Can breed something either silver with a pattern (Like Columbian, or black tailed white).  Or recessive white to it to clean it up.  I think an interesting thing to maybe try with dominate white, though you don't want to mess with reds,  Is something like Red Pyle?  Just a thought..... BBS is an easy one to clean up with just selection.

You know what I would like to see in a Silkie.  Is a good clean Columbian, either silver or gold/buff.  Something that breeds true and isn't full of random junk I wouldn't have to deal with later.  Like eb or e+ genes.   Not found any yet and may have to bite the bullet and make some?   (Columbian cochin to black Silkie.  F1 blacks to F1 blacks, should get 1 in 8 or better that turns up Columbian and Silkie feathered.  Still a lot of selection involved.)

   I have to admit most my breeding concerning lacing, have had mostly to do with Wyandotte.  But it should follow suit the same way.
     Using a black Silkie that is hopefully silver underneath.  I think the way I would approach it.  Is to use something more in body type and size as in SL Cochin bantam.  All Silkies have evolved from a Cochin body type.  All you have to do is look at the old wood cut type prints in the old standards to see that.    I would keep it simple using SL to try to get a cleaner lacing look to the Silkie.   Skip anything red/gold/buff with lacing until I could see if the lacing looked right on a Silkie in SL first.  Still have to deal with comb genes and leg/skin color issues. 
  Then breed F1 to F1, hatch a ton, select birds that come closest to what I'm looking for and breed those together.   Trust me it takes a good 5-6 generations to get "close enough". 
  Just throwing it out there.   LOL!

Sounds cool too, I don't think I'm ready for that step yet. Maybe in 5 years when I've breed up the producauction on my silkies (meat and eggs).

 

[Winterwolfbane]

Yeah, it is a lot of management. Thank goodness for leg bands. LOL!
Was wondering if you know if your BBS are eb or e+?

 

[Tammylr]

   Yeah, it is a lot of management.  Thank goodness for leg bands.  LOL! 
  Was wondering if you know if your BBS are eb or e+? 

They could be eb as the woman who breed them has partridge too and they could be in there too. Next year will be my first breeding season with these particular birds. I plan to hatch like crazy! So the pairings will be a splash rooster over a black cuckoo hen and a paint hen. My porcelains are living at the farm. Still not sure about the rooster from those three, the two pullets are perfect lavender with lacing buy he has no lacing I can see and is just a dirty whit. I look at him and think really light splash. He is beautiful otherwise. They all are with perfectly feathered feet and they are really starting to grow their fluff in well.

 

[Winterwolfbane]

If I remember right? I think anything considered "partridge" is eb. Which is a patterning gene (Pg) with brown (eb). These feather color names get confusing sometimes. A friend of mine called them "hobby farm names" because most the time they aren't what the bird is for real genetically.

Non barred/cuckoo splash over black cuckoo, gives you cuckoo males in either black or blue. And females that are going to be solid blue or black, because of the sex-linking. Be able to sex them at hatch because the males will have a lighter patch, or spot. On their heads. Females won't. But these males will not entirely breed true to cuckoo because they only will have one copy of the gene from their mother. And need two copies to breed true to just cuckoo with cuckoo hens.
Not sure what a "paint" is in Silkies?? Have to enlighten me there. Did you post a picture of her someplace? Is it something like "calico" in Cochins? Which is just incomplete/ modified Millie Fleur, or Jubilee. I'm sure she's really pretty though.

Porcelains are lavender over Millie Fleur. So not sure what you mean by lacing? Only way to tell what that mystery, maybe splash, rooster is. Is if you can breed him to black or blue to see what you get.

My biggest goal this year is trying to save my flock of bantam Araucanas. Only have a few and they are awful egg eaters. If I can get enough eggs away from them before they eat them, that is.

(I have 4 eggs right now I was lucky enough to get to first.) I want to hatch new birds and re-home the old ones someplace. Start over and hope the new ones aren't like their parents about eating eggs. The one rooster is a nasty little bugger too and I really want rid of him. LOL!