Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[Tammylr]

How are the feet looking great?  SO, you only want to breed TOWARDS the SOP, and not actually have birds that come close to it?  Why bother at all then?  When one starts with birds that are very far from the SOP, unless new birds are brought in, it will be difficult to get close.  I thought you said you had done your research and did not want any suggestions?
How do you set up a Punnett Square without knowing what genes you are working with?  You never did tell us how you map the genes you are working with.

Actually, one can point fingers and say what is wrong and what is not.  First of all, this forum is about breeding to the American Poultry Association Standard of Perfection.  That does give a guideline for how certain varieties of certain breeds are to look.  Also, Tammylr stated her goal was to breed to the APA SOP.  I was merely pointing out that the chicks she posted pictures of already showed negative attributes.  If you are talking about the porcelain issue, Tammylr's birds may well be porcelain, and she is not using proper terminology to describe them. 

Why would a Jubilee Orpington have an advantage over Buff Orpington?  Tammylr only mentioned Orpington, not a specific variety, but neither variety would be a great choice to make a large Silkie that could produce meat and eggs.  How is something "partly Millie Fleur"?  Tammylr has already made it clear she has done research and doesn't want help.

Tammylr was the one who said her genetic research came from the Chicken Calculator site, and stated EVERYONE on BYC raved about it, which is not true.  As far as the Chicken Calculator, it only take a few loci into account, and you don't get an accurate picture, even if you know everything at the loci it does include. 

done with your negativity, you are being blocked. Good day.

 

[howfunkyisurchicken]

Ditto. I used to breed LF Cochins, and while they are a heavy breed, they're isn't as much meat as you'd expect under all of those feathers. If you were to actually butcher one, after you plucked it, you'd be quite disappeared with the remaining carcass. But, as far as type goes, they'd be your best bet for a standard Silkie that looks like the Silkies we know today.
I think if I were trying to create LF Silkies, I think I'd outcross to Houdans. They're a dual purpose breed that is crested, bearded and they have the same extra toes that Silkies do. They're not huge, but they're a respectable size and they're great layers (unlike Silkies and Cochins, for the most part). They don't have that really round body shape, but in my opinion, that wont be terribly difficult to achieve and Houdans aren't an "all fluff" breed. They are clean legged, but again, that's something that's easy to get back.

I think a LF Silkie is a fantastic idea. I've seen just one standard sized "Silkie" rooster being sold at a swap during my time of keeping chickens. And, while he looked very much like a hatchery quality bird, he was still very striking. That large bird with Silkie plumage and dark skin was definitely an eye catcher and I wish I'd have given that seller my $5 and came home with that rooster more times than I can count!
I also see no issue with breeding towards a personal goal. When I first started breeding Sizzles, I caught a lot of flack for it. Not so much from this forum, but from my serious breeder friends. Now Sizzles are wildly popular, and some of those ney sayers have purchased birds from me
Something else you have to consider, seeing as how some of the previous comments seem to have offended you, is you did post this on the Silkie genetics, breeding and showing thread. Folks that post on this thread are VERY serious about their Silkies and this thread was meant for nothing but SOP Silkie talk. So much so, that when it started to stray off course, another was created for that purpose alone. But, no matter. The way I see it, we're all here to learn and it seems to me that's what you're trying to do. So...
Best of luck with your journey! If you eventually achieve your goal, I'd be interested in some of those eggs and/or chicks

 

[Winterwolfbane]

"SO, you only want to breed TOWARDS the SOP, and not actually have birds that come close to it? Why bother at all then?"

Humm, WOW......That was mean. You are kind of an upstart aren't you, gojira? Frankly, no one wants to fight with you. Some people breed for the SOP and some also want to try new things. I learned my genetics first hand by applying them hands on to my birds. Sure, I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned so much from doing it. More then any text I have or classes I took on genetics, ever taught me. Also a close friend of mine David Hancox taught me a few tricks of the trade. And really, all breeds came from maybe one or two sources originally, red and (possibly) grey Jungle Fowl. How on earth do you think we have all the different breeds of chicken we have if no one experimented? No one cross bred, no one looked for answers to why things are?

It doesn't mean they or anyone is/are ruining the breed (Silkies), especially if they never intend to show or sell what they have made. And no one so far has said they were breeding for profit or show. Not anything I have heard so far. More like meat, eggs and feather colors. I think it kind of unfair to act as you are. Like someone is attacking or insulting your knowledge or your resolve on how you breed your birds. No one is. That's fine you have an opinion, and would really like to know what it is. But not like this. If your feathers are ruffled, we're sorry. I truly am. I came into this thread thinking it would be nice and friendly. And find a spitting match. Sad really. We are talking about cute friendly Silkies here, right?

An Orpington is an Orpington, no advantages there. It was about the feather color. Oh and "jubilee" (Double Laced Dominate White) is the European version. What I was referring to is the hobby farm US version of a certain color of Orpington. Was Mottled Mahogany Wheaten, with modifiers that give it a lighter (buffish) more incomplete Millie look. All in all it is a "partly Millie Fleur" coloring. All depends on how the modifiers act with the mo and lacing genes. I didn't want to get all technical. I had assumed people would know what I was talking about? Sorry about that.

 

[gojira]

"SO, you only want to breed TOWARDS the SOP, and not actually have birds that come close to it? Why bother at all then?"

Humm, WOW......That was mean. You are kind of an upstart aren't you, gojira? Frankly, no one wants to fight with you. Some people breed for the SOP and some also want to try new things. I learned my genetics first hand by applying them hands on to my birds. Sure, I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned so much from doing it. More then any text I have or classes I took on genetics, ever taught me. Also a close friend of mine David Hancox taught me a few tricks of the trade. And really, all breeds came from maybe one or two sources originally, red and (possibly) grey Jungle Fowl. How on earth do you think we have all the different breeds of chicken we have if no one experimented? No one cross bred, no one looked for answers to why things are?

It doesn't mean they or anyone is/are ruining the breed (Silkies), especially if they never intend to show or sell what they have made. And no one so far has said they were breeding for profit or show. Not anything I have heard so far. More like meat, eggs and feather colors. I think it kind of unfair to act as you are. Like someone is attacking or insulting your knowledge or your resolve on how you breed your birds. No one is. That's fine you have an opinion, and would really like to know what it is. But not like this. If your feathers are ruffled, we're sorry. I truly am. I came into this thread thinking it would be nice and friendly. And find a spitting match. Sad really. We are talking about cute friendly Silkies here, right?

An Orpington is an Orpington, no advantages there. It was about the feather color. Oh and "jubilee" (Double Laced Dominate White) is the European version. What I was referring to is the hobby farm US version of a certain color of Orpington. Was Mottled Mahogany Wheaten, with modifiers that give it a lighter (buffish) more incomplete Millie look. All in all it is a "partly Millie Fleur" coloring. All depends on how the modifiers act with the mo and lacing genes. I didn't want to get all technical. I had assumed people would know what I was talking about? Sorry about that.

How was that mean? The poster at one time said she was intending to breed to the SOP, then changed to say she would only breed TOWARD (and she placed the emphasis there) the SOP. If you don't intend to breed to the SOP, you might as well make random matings and have fun with it. It will save a lot of effort that way. Just curious, what gives you the idea that I am an upstart? I wasn't asking anyone to fight with me. I simply made honest comments. I get the impression you pick random posts in this thread to read, because you don't seem to understand how things got to this point. When someone is posting on a thread about breeding to the SOP, and states he/she wants to breed to the SOP, one would assume the poster wants to breed to the SOP. I was aware that the poster stated she wanted to breed some to the SOP, and breed others to have eggs and meat. I have no problem with that. I have never suggested I had a problem with that. But when I mentioned to the poster that she would have a tough time getting the birds she had to the SOP (trying to save her time, effort and heartbreak if that was indeed her goal), she got mad at me. Also, when I tried to tell her that an Orpington might not be the best choice for her other goal, she also got mad at me. I was simply trying to help. However, the poster was mad at me prior to that, from my very first post on this thread. She went as far as to tell me I should remain a lurker on this thread and not participate. But you do not consider that mean or rude? The poster did not seem to be looking for answers. The poster routinely made statements that were not true, and got mad when she was told they were not true. That does not seem like someone looking for answers. Even the front page of this forum states that it is expected for posters to use correct terminology. How does it help communication if we use an established term to mean anything we want?

The poster did attack me from my first post, telling me I should remain a lurker, and not participate in this thread. Read back several pages. I had simply pointed out that the poster had used some genetic terms incorrectly, which I thought was within reason to do, since this is a forum on genetics. I was under the impression this thread was about breeding Silkies to the SOP, not making someone feel good even when the person makes statements about genetics and poultry that are not true, etc.

The reason I said an Orpington was not a good choice had nothing to do with feather color. The poster never mentioned any color variety of Orpington. When I suggested to the poster that Orpington would not be the best choice to get to her goal, she got upset at me.

I was hoping to be a part of a thread that discussed breeding Silkies to the SOP.

 

[Tammylr]

Ditto. I used to breed LF Cochins, and while they are a heavy breed, they're isn't as much meat as you'd expect under all of those feathers. If you were to actually butcher one, after you plucked it, you'd be quite disappeared with the remaining carcass. But, as far as type goes, they'd be your best bet for a standard Silkie that looks like the Silkies we know today.
I think if I were trying to create LF Silkies, I think I'd outcross to Houdans. They're a dual purpose breed that is crested, bearded and they have the same extra toes that Silkies do. They're not huge, but they're a respectable size and they're great layers (unlike Silkies and Cochins, for the most part). They don't have that really round body shape, but in my opinion, that wont be terribly difficult to achieve and Houdans aren't an "all fluff" breed. They are clean legged, but again, that's something that's easy to get back.

I think a LF Silkie is a fantastic idea. I've seen just one standard sized "Silkie" rooster being sold at a swap during my time of keeping chickens. And, while he looked very much like a hatchery quality bird, he was still very striking. That large bird with Silkie plumage and dark skin was definitely an eye catcher and I wish I'd have given that seller my $5 and came home with that rooster more times than I can count!
I also see no issue with breeding towards a personal goal. When I first started breeding Sizzles, I caught a lot of flack for it. Not so much from this forum, but from my serious breeder friends. Now Sizzles are wildly popular, and some of those ney sayers have purchased birds from me
Something else you have to consider, seeing as how some of the previous comments seem to have offended you, is you did post this on the Silkie genetics, breeding and showing thread. Folks that post on this thread are VERY serious about their Silkies and this thread was meant for nothing but SOP Silkie talk. So much so, that when it started to stray off course, another was created for that purpose alone. But, no matter. The way I see it, we're all here to learn and it seems to me that's what you're trying to do. So...
Best of luck with your journey! If you eventually achieve your goal, I'd be interested in some of those eggs and/or chicks

I'll keep everyone posted as I work towards my goals, and that's what it will be is an ongoing work in progress. I didn't think about the houdan. I don't know much about them so I'll have to look. Thank you so much for the suggested direction. Like I said before, I'm still in the research and looking stage right now. Not set on any given mix yet. I appreciate all the suggestions. Thank you! e

 

[Tammylr]

Ok, updated pictures on my birds. They are 6 weeks old, so not fully feathered yet but coming along. I'll put what I see wrong with each bird and will keep a list of what everyone else is seeing too so that I can hopefully work towards a better silkie with each generation. I will eventually bring in new blood but not at this time. I want to see how these guys turn out first by the time they hit a year. I have three birds to look at, as I have posted before I wont be breeding the 'porcelain' silkies. They just aren't what I'm looking for.
Ok, first up is my splash.
Back is too long looking to me, I want more of an S curve.

Pretty good looking, still trying to fill out the hackles.

Short stocky legs and you can see some of the foot feathering.

Front view of feet, you cand see that the feathering almost completely covers the middle toe, there are some lighter nails but all of his toes are black.

Back view of feet, you can really see a lot of the feathering from this angle. Again, some lighter nails.

Beak has a light tip, didn't have this at hatch but it has developed.

Chrest is small, but it is still growing in.

Bird two, black cuckoo- not in a recognized color for show first off.
Back is shorter than bird one but tail isn't as full

Not very fluffy in any real way from the back either.

Noted again the lighter tipped beak, stocky legs, not very fluffy

Front view of feet, have feathering midway down middle toe, not as good as first bird, lighter nails but feet and toes are black.

Back view of feet, not as good of feathering as bird one, light nails, bottom of feet look lighter in picture but feet are dirty, they are darker in person.

Bird three, worst bird of the three, paint- the breeder out crossed for dominant white and has been breeding back to silkies. Not a show approved color.
Very long back. I'm wondering what was crossed in because she has the triangle shape of a meat bird.

Plenty of fluff back here

Light beak tip, pink patches throughout body and on feet, not fully melanized, again, she is my worst bird.

Front view of feet, pink spots, light nails, decent feathering to middle toe, dirty feet from stepping in fermented feed.

back view of feet, pink patches again.

Thanks so much in advance for your feed back, it will help when I start evaluating the chicks from these guys to decide who gets to stay.

 

[irishsilkie]

5 month old cockerel critiques please as want to know where he stands

 

[Winterwolfbane]

Ok, updated pictures on my birds. They are 6 weeks old, so not fully feathered yet but coming along. I'll put what I see wrong with each bird and will keep a list of what everyone else is seeing too so that I can hopefully work towards a better silkie with each generation. I will eventually bring in new blood but not at this time. I want to see how these guys turn out first by the time they hit a year. I have three birds to look at, as I have posted before I wont be breeding the 'porcelain' silkies. They just aren't what I'm looking for.
Ok, first up is my splash.
Back is too long looking to me, I want more of an S curve.

Pretty good looking, still trying to fill out the hackles.

Short stocky legs and you can see some of the foot feathering.

Front view of feet, you cand see that the feathering almost completely covers the middle toe, there are some lighter nails but all of his toes are black.

Back view of feet, you can really see a lot of the feathering from this angle. Again, some lighter nails.

Beak has a light tip, didn't have this at hatch but it has developed.

Chrest is small, but it is still growing in.


Bird two, black cuckoo- not in a recognized color for show first off.
Back is shorter than bird one but tail isn't as full

Not very fluffy in any real way from the back either.


Noted again the lighter tipped beak, stocky legs, not very fluffy

Front view of feet, have feathering midway down middle toe, not as good as first bird, lighter nails but feet and toes are black.

Back view of feet, not as good of feathering as bird one, light nails, bottom of feet look lighter in picture but feet are dirty, they are darker in person.


Bird three, worst bird of the three, paint- the breeder out crossed for dominant white and has been breeding back to silkies. Not a show approved color.
Very long back. I'm wondering what was crossed in because she has the triangle shape of a meat bird.

Plenty of fluff back here

Light beak tip, pink patches throughout body and on feet, not fully melanized, again, she is my worst bird.

Front view of feet, pink spots, light nails, decent feathering to middle toe, dirty feet from stepping in fermented feed.

back view of feet, pink patches again.



Thanks so much in advance for your feed back, it will help when I start evaluating the chicks from these guys to decide who gets to stay.

First bird is definitely the best of the three. It's hard to be completely sure what to keep and what to cull at this age. I don't do a first cull on my birds until they're like 10 to 12 weeks old actually. Unless they hatch with the wrong markings/color for whatever color they're supposed to be, then they get marked then.
Cuckoo chick is a bit lacking in fluff. Like you said, and crest needs something to be desired. Cuckoo birds in general sometimes have lighter toe nails or even toes when young. It may go away as it gets older? The lighter beak tip is normal too and may also darken with age. It looks to maybe only have one barring (cuckoo) gene because it's so dark in color. Last bird being dominate white may always have the light patches on the skin. You're right about the body typing looking more like some other breed. Most likely again, as you said, from whatever breed was used to transfer the dominate white coloring? No way to determine what breed that might of been. Going to have to maybe work on the body typing I think more with this one's offspring? Really only time will tell because they're so young now.

 

[howfunkyisurchicken]

I agree the first bird looks the best. I wouldn't even worry about backs and crests at this point, as previously stated, they're too young. I wouldn't start judging them too harshly until all of their pin feathers are gone and then I'd still give them more time to grow.
Silkies mature slowly, and a juvenile that looks to have a long back can loose that as an adult. I've had some really homely, gangly youngsters turn out to be stunning adults. The hen in my avatar was one of those birds, she wasn't the prettiest chick...

 

[Winterwolfbane]

To be honest, and please I don't want to hurt any feelings.

What I so hate about people wanting an honest opinion on their birds. Them being maybe upset when they get it.

LOL!
Ok, Need a good side photo to see his body typing better. Hard to determine the depth of his body or the length of his back. A front shot too would help. But can see he's kind of lacking in foot/leg feathering? Crest and tail is so-so. But over all not too gosh awful. Color looks clean, but wouldn't be my choice for showing. He's only 5 month old, may fill out more when he's fully molted into his adult feathering? It's a tough call, because young birds can change so much within their first year. I still would have a tough time taking him to a show, because the quality is a bit lacking at this point.
Thing is, can't run my hands down this bird to give a full evaluation. For over all condition. Can only do that in a show ring. Photos never give the whole picture. ( I didn't mean to make a pun there. LOL!) But it's good to ask for opinions and I hope you get more then just mine?