A real photographer shot this picture today of one of the cockerels- His glamor shot.
So different from me and my iphone4.
So different from me and my iphone4.
Silverudd's Blue
- Thread starter KYTinpusher
- Start date
Fabulous!
Posting so I can keep updated with all the changes!
Admittedly as someone who loves to show I am curious of what will be the SOP standard admittedly.
Admittedly as someone who loves to show I am curious of what will be the SOP standard admittedly.
- Thread starter
- #134
It is unlikely that there will ever be an SOP for the Silverudd's Blue. We will probably develop a breed description, but it will most likely will not be narrow enough to be considered an SOP, at least where the APA is concerned. This is not just because Martin Silverudd was against breeding his breeds to an SOP, but because doing so would likely hurt their production capabilities. After all, this is a production breed. I am following the groups in Sweden as they put together an official description that we will be able to follow here in the states.
So handsome!A real photographer shot this picture today of one of the cockerels- His glamor shot.
So different from me and my iphone4.
thank you, I hope this develops soon so we can personally breed our flock to "description" of the breed[COLOR=0000CD]It is unlikely that there will ever be an SOP for the Silverudd's Blue. We will probably develop a breed description, but it will most likely will not be narrow enough to be considered an SOP, at least where the APA is concerned. This is not just because Martin Silverudd was against breeding his breeds to an SOP, but because doing so would likely hurt their production capabilities. After all, this is a production breed. I am following the groups in Sweden as they put together an official description that we will be able to follow here in the states.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=0000CD]So handsome! [/COLOR]
Perhaps one day we as breeders can do egg competitions.
I have a pair of silverudd's blues (a mother and a son) they are both blue and are very splotchy, does anybody know why? I may at some point obtain some blue andalusians, could I cross them in to better the lacing and also add some genetic diversity. What problems may I encounter in my endeavor? I know productivity may go down a bit, is that correct? However I've read that if they address line bred for too many generations that could happen too?
pioneerchick816
Songster
Man! He is one good look' n dudeA real photographer shot this picture today of one of the cockerels- His glamor shot. So different from me and my iphone4.
- Thread starter
- #138
There are some developments in the Silverudd's Blue World. The Swedish Culture Poultry Association has come out with an official description of the breed:
"Silverudd’s Blue created in the 1980s by Martin Silverudd. To create the breed he used a small productive New Hampshire and a small productive Rhode Island Red. He must have used at least two races to. Descendants to the Cream Legbar he imported in the late 50s was part of the creation to get the gene for blue shell color. The gene gave along with the genes for brown shell NH and RIR brought, SB-egg its characteristic green color. There is nothing else listed on the origin, but Martin Silverudd left notes that showed that he had Australorp on his farm. It’s most likely that Australorp was the breed that gave Silverudd’s Blue the characteristic blue coloration of the plumage.
At the time of Martin Silverudd’s sudden death SB was called Svensk Grönäggsvärpare, which may be regarded as a working title. It has erroneously been called the Isbar, which is the name of a breed MS created before the SB.
The name Silverudd’s Blue is set as a tribute to the breed's creator and alludes to the gene for blue in the plumage and the gene for blue shell color. The breed was most certainly not finished when Martin Silverudd suddenly died 1986. After his death the breed was widely distributed and this has allowed a genetic variation in size, body shape, skin color, etc. to be relatively large.
Silverudds blue is the way an active and lively breed.
Silverudds blue will lay about 250 eggs / year The eggs are olive green to lighter green. Egg weight varies between 50 and 60 grams.
Weight about 2.5 kg for a rooster and a hen about 1.5 kg. Variation occurs.
The plumage is black, blue and splash where especially the males can have gold or silver in the neck and saddle feathers."
You will notice that it is very vague, but you have to remember that there is a studbook in Sweden to help protect the integrity of the breed. We don't have that luxury here. These are my latest thoughts on the subject:
Last night my brain was in overdrive most of the night. The few times that I was able to disengage it and fall asleep didn't last long. Inevitably the snoring from DH, or the crowing outside my window, or the Great Pyrenees barking to guard her territory, or the pouring rain would wake me and the brain would quickly go back into overdrive and pick up right where it left off. I have a love/hate relationship with these kind of nights. I hate them because they leave me exhausted and pretty worthless the next day, but love them because lying there in the dark and relative quiet without constant interruptions of the day's routine lets me think clearer and deeper. It often brings revelations that I never really thought about before, at least not consciously. Last night's subject, as you can probably guess, was Silverudd's Blues. I am about to make a bit of a u-turn here (or perhaps just really solidify where I have been headed in my mind all along), but please bear with me. I realize now that I have been so focused on preserving what Martin Silverudd created, that I haven't given enough thought to what he was trying to create. My intention has always been to honor the work that Martin Silverudd so eloquently accomplished in his breeding endeavors. I welcome any and all comments when you have read the entire post.
So, let me throw something out here for discussion. I was trying to get into the mind of Martin Silverudd and his objection to breeding to an SOP and what that means to our goals for the breed. We should all know by now that M.S. (Martin Silverudd) was against breeding to an SOP. If you didn't before, you do now. I have always believed that his reason for objecting was because he created his breeds for production. His stated goal for his life's work was basically to create eye candy that produced copious amounts of beautiful eggs for the small family farmer. (I think we can all agree that he accomplished his goal and did a great job.) However, a standard SOP often ignores the function of a production breed and sacrifices production for the sake of a cookie cutter phenotype (outward appearance.) I realized last night that this may not be his only objection to an SOP.
While M.S. objected to breeding to an SOP, I am quite sure that he was accutely aware that the definition of a breed is an animal that breeds true to a recognized phenotype and function. Wikipedia defines a breed as " ...a specific group of domestic animals having homogeneous appearance (phenotype), homogeneous behavior, and/or other characteristics that distinguish it from other organisms of the same species... When bred together, individuals of the same breed pass on these predictable traits to their offspring, and this ability – known as "breeding true" – is a requirement for a breed." To be a recognized breed, a knowledgeable observer must be able to identify any individual of that breed by a set of predictable traits.
While a Silverudd's Blue cock and a Birchen Marans cock may appear similar at first glance, a study of the eye color, earlobe color, leg color, size, etc. would set them apart as different breeds. The entirety of the specimen is what distinguishes breeds apart. It is the wide latitude in acceptable traits in the Silverudd's Blue that causes confusion as some combinations that are seen could easily be mistaken for poor representations of other breeds.
M.S. did not have a written description of the S.B. that has been found yet, though I am sure he had one in mind. His goal was to produce a "breed", not a barnyard mutt that laid green eggs. He had to have had a definite vision in mind that he was breeding toward. How close he was to that vision, only he knew and it is likely he took that information to his grave. It is well known that he did not finish the breed before his death. So perhaps to honor M.S., we should finish what he started. In order to do that we have to discern what his final goal was. To accomplish that at this point, without any known document from the man himself, we are going to have to do some detective work and make some deductions.
So, the only thing we have to go by to make a breed description is to look at the most common characteristics found in the foundation flocks, paying particular attention to the flocks most closely traceable back to M.S. himself. I have said it many times that the description of the S.B. is contained in the foundation flocks. We just need to study them and apply some deductive reasoning.
I will give you what I believe M.S.'s final goal was, with the possible exception of making it an auto-sexing breed like his others. I base it on many, many hours of reading posts from many of the breeders in Sweden, looking at many pictures of the birds in Sweden, my research into the genetics behind the S.B., and my own experience with breeding S.B. This is my educated guess, not an official description. It is subject to change as more information becomes available. I fully accept that I may be wrong. I don't want to be a dictator here either, but I do want sound reasoning to back up differences of opinion. I do not want just that you like it better. This is not about what we want, but what M.S. intended.
So here goes!
BBS coloring with silver hackles/saddles on the males and solid color on the females - this is where I believe M.S. may have also had a problem with an SOP. This type of color does not fit the standard definition of BBS. From my research into the genetics, I do not believe that the S.B. show silver and gold because of the birchen gene. I believe they are E, as opposed to ER, genetically. It is due to a lack of melanizers that there is "leakage" in the cocks. This type of leakage is much more prevalent in cocks than in hens. To someone trying to fit within an SOP, leakage is bad. But I think that M.S. probably loved the look he achieved and the geneticist in him was fascinated by the effects of melanizers (or lack thereof) on the phenotype. There are many colors and combinations that do not fit within a standard SOP. For a man that enjoyed genetics and variety (as evidenced by his creating breeds that laid many different, beautiful color eggs), throwing any of them out because they didn't fit an SOP would be a tragedy! I have struggled with the question of silver or gold. While silver and gold are both seen in the foundation flocks, I believe silver is the more common. Also, being a dominant gene, the silver would be much easier to remove from the breeding pool if it was not desired.
Dark eyes, though I do not know if they would be described as black or dark brown.
Willow legs
Smaller, leaner build - a layer build as opposed to a dual purpose build.
Large, red single, early developing comb on the cocks, small to medium red, single comb on the hens - the goal here is to be able to quickly identify gender in chicks.
Non-broodiness - broody hens don't lay eggs.
Friendly, non-aggressive birds - safer for families.
Good foragers - alert, protective cocks with good instincts - more foraging=lower feed cost
Lays green eggs, homozygous for the blue egg gene
Excellent layers of large eggs
I am not sure about earlobe color, beak color, and probably several more traits that are not coming to mind atm. I need to do more research here.
Now, I am not suggesting we start culling hard to meet this description. That would be contrary to the goal of breeding for productivity, IMO. However, this is where my thinking for a "Preferred" and "Suggested" set of qualities comes from - a goal to reach for in making the S.B. a recognizable BREED. The preferred would represent the ideal, while acceptable encompasses the whole generally accepted population. As anyone who has been breeding for a while knows, very few "ideal" birds are ever achieved. Out of 100 chicks, maybe only one or two in an SOP breeding program are considered to be show or breeder quality. A breeding program that emphasizes production has to have much more leeway along the way to ideal, while still keeping an eye on that ideal and creeping closer when able. It will be a very long road, but I feel one worth taking.
"Silverudd’s Blue created in the 1980s by Martin Silverudd. To create the breed he used a small productive New Hampshire and a small productive Rhode Island Red. He must have used at least two races to. Descendants to the Cream Legbar he imported in the late 50s was part of the creation to get the gene for blue shell color. The gene gave along with the genes for brown shell NH and RIR brought, SB-egg its characteristic green color. There is nothing else listed on the origin, but Martin Silverudd left notes that showed that he had Australorp on his farm. It’s most likely that Australorp was the breed that gave Silverudd’s Blue the characteristic blue coloration of the plumage.
At the time of Martin Silverudd’s sudden death SB was called Svensk Grönäggsvärpare, which may be regarded as a working title. It has erroneously been called the Isbar, which is the name of a breed MS created before the SB.
The name Silverudd’s Blue is set as a tribute to the breed's creator and alludes to the gene for blue in the plumage and the gene for blue shell color. The breed was most certainly not finished when Martin Silverudd suddenly died 1986. After his death the breed was widely distributed and this has allowed a genetic variation in size, body shape, skin color, etc. to be relatively large.
Silverudds blue is the way an active and lively breed.
Silverudds blue will lay about 250 eggs / year The eggs are olive green to lighter green. Egg weight varies between 50 and 60 grams.
Weight about 2.5 kg for a rooster and a hen about 1.5 kg. Variation occurs.
The plumage is black, blue and splash where especially the males can have gold or silver in the neck and saddle feathers."
You will notice that it is very vague, but you have to remember that there is a studbook in Sweden to help protect the integrity of the breed. We don't have that luxury here. These are my latest thoughts on the subject:
Last night my brain was in overdrive most of the night. The few times that I was able to disengage it and fall asleep didn't last long. Inevitably the snoring from DH, or the crowing outside my window, or the Great Pyrenees barking to guard her territory, or the pouring rain would wake me and the brain would quickly go back into overdrive and pick up right where it left off. I have a love/hate relationship with these kind of nights. I hate them because they leave me exhausted and pretty worthless the next day, but love them because lying there in the dark and relative quiet without constant interruptions of the day's routine lets me think clearer and deeper. It often brings revelations that I never really thought about before, at least not consciously. Last night's subject, as you can probably guess, was Silverudd's Blues. I am about to make a bit of a u-turn here (or perhaps just really solidify where I have been headed in my mind all along), but please bear with me. I realize now that I have been so focused on preserving what Martin Silverudd created, that I haven't given enough thought to what he was trying to create. My intention has always been to honor the work that Martin Silverudd so eloquently accomplished in his breeding endeavors. I welcome any and all comments when you have read the entire post.
So, let me throw something out here for discussion. I was trying to get into the mind of Martin Silverudd and his objection to breeding to an SOP and what that means to our goals for the breed. We should all know by now that M.S. (Martin Silverudd) was against breeding to an SOP. If you didn't before, you do now. I have always believed that his reason for objecting was because he created his breeds for production. His stated goal for his life's work was basically to create eye candy that produced copious amounts of beautiful eggs for the small family farmer. (I think we can all agree that he accomplished his goal and did a great job.) However, a standard SOP often ignores the function of a production breed and sacrifices production for the sake of a cookie cutter phenotype (outward appearance.) I realized last night that this may not be his only objection to an SOP.
While M.S. objected to breeding to an SOP, I am quite sure that he was accutely aware that the definition of a breed is an animal that breeds true to a recognized phenotype and function. Wikipedia defines a breed as " ...a specific group of domestic animals having homogeneous appearance (phenotype), homogeneous behavior, and/or other characteristics that distinguish it from other organisms of the same species... When bred together, individuals of the same breed pass on these predictable traits to their offspring, and this ability – known as "breeding true" – is a requirement for a breed." To be a recognized breed, a knowledgeable observer must be able to identify any individual of that breed by a set of predictable traits.
While a Silverudd's Blue cock and a Birchen Marans cock may appear similar at first glance, a study of the eye color, earlobe color, leg color, size, etc. would set them apart as different breeds. The entirety of the specimen is what distinguishes breeds apart. It is the wide latitude in acceptable traits in the Silverudd's Blue that causes confusion as some combinations that are seen could easily be mistaken for poor representations of other breeds.
M.S. did not have a written description of the S.B. that has been found yet, though I am sure he had one in mind. His goal was to produce a "breed", not a barnyard mutt that laid green eggs. He had to have had a definite vision in mind that he was breeding toward. How close he was to that vision, only he knew and it is likely he took that information to his grave. It is well known that he did not finish the breed before his death. So perhaps to honor M.S., we should finish what he started. In order to do that we have to discern what his final goal was. To accomplish that at this point, without any known document from the man himself, we are going to have to do some detective work and make some deductions.
So, the only thing we have to go by to make a breed description is to look at the most common characteristics found in the foundation flocks, paying particular attention to the flocks most closely traceable back to M.S. himself. I have said it many times that the description of the S.B. is contained in the foundation flocks. We just need to study them and apply some deductive reasoning.
I will give you what I believe M.S.'s final goal was, with the possible exception of making it an auto-sexing breed like his others. I base it on many, many hours of reading posts from many of the breeders in Sweden, looking at many pictures of the birds in Sweden, my research into the genetics behind the S.B., and my own experience with breeding S.B. This is my educated guess, not an official description. It is subject to change as more information becomes available. I fully accept that I may be wrong. I don't want to be a dictator here either, but I do want sound reasoning to back up differences of opinion. I do not want just that you like it better. This is not about what we want, but what M.S. intended.
So here goes!
BBS coloring with silver hackles/saddles on the males and solid color on the females - this is where I believe M.S. may have also had a problem with an SOP. This type of color does not fit the standard definition of BBS. From my research into the genetics, I do not believe that the S.B. show silver and gold because of the birchen gene. I believe they are E, as opposed to ER, genetically. It is due to a lack of melanizers that there is "leakage" in the cocks. This type of leakage is much more prevalent in cocks than in hens. To someone trying to fit within an SOP, leakage is bad. But I think that M.S. probably loved the look he achieved and the geneticist in him was fascinated by the effects of melanizers (or lack thereof) on the phenotype. There are many colors and combinations that do not fit within a standard SOP. For a man that enjoyed genetics and variety (as evidenced by his creating breeds that laid many different, beautiful color eggs), throwing any of them out because they didn't fit an SOP would be a tragedy! I have struggled with the question of silver or gold. While silver and gold are both seen in the foundation flocks, I believe silver is the more common. Also, being a dominant gene, the silver would be much easier to remove from the breeding pool if it was not desired.
Dark eyes, though I do not know if they would be described as black or dark brown.
Willow legs
Smaller, leaner build - a layer build as opposed to a dual purpose build.
Large, red single, early developing comb on the cocks, small to medium red, single comb on the hens - the goal here is to be able to quickly identify gender in chicks.
Non-broodiness - broody hens don't lay eggs.
Friendly, non-aggressive birds - safer for families.
Good foragers - alert, protective cocks with good instincts - more foraging=lower feed cost
Lays green eggs, homozygous for the blue egg gene
Excellent layers of large eggs
I am not sure about earlobe color, beak color, and probably several more traits that are not coming to mind atm. I need to do more research here.
Now, I am not suggesting we start culling hard to meet this description. That would be contrary to the goal of breeding for productivity, IMO. However, this is where my thinking for a "Preferred" and "Suggested" set of qualities comes from - a goal to reach for in making the S.B. a recognizable BREED. The preferred would represent the ideal, while acceptable encompasses the whole generally accepted population. As anyone who has been breeding for a while knows, very few "ideal" birds are ever achieved. Out of 100 chicks, maybe only one or two in an SOP breeding program are considered to be show or breeder quality. A breeding program that emphasizes production has to have much more leeway along the way to ideal, while still keeping an eye on that ideal and creeping closer when able. It will be a very long road, but I feel one worth taking.
- Thread starter
- #139
I know I stirred things up a little yesterday. Many may think I did a complete about face in my guidance, but I don't think that is true. I have always said to look to the foundation flocks in Sweden for where we should be headed. And I have always encouraged breeders to look to, and obtain if possible, the first import stock because it is more uniform in appearance and closer, IMO, to what Silverudd was working with when he died. And while I am now advocating that we standardize the stock we have here in the states to be recognizable as a breed, I am not suggesting we try to conform to the SOP BBS standards of the APA (not that I am opposed to meeting those standards if it is agreed that is where M.S. was headed). I think we standardize the Silverudd's Blue to be a Silverudd's Blue even if it will never be accepted by the APA. This will protect the work that Martin Silverudd did and that has always been my primary goal.
And, because I didn't stir up things enough yesterday,
I want to throw out another scenario for you to think about. Everyone knows that most of M.S.'s breeds were auto-sexing and that was one of his stated goals with the breeds he created. However, the Silverudd's Blue is not. Is it just that he didn't get that far? Perhaps. That would be quite an accomplishment in a BBS breed and maybe he wanted the challenge. Or maybe he had another reason for breeding a BBS with color leakage.....
As my brain continued in overdrive about this while I was driving all over town yesterday, I had one of those mind-blowing moments. Why had I not thought of this before? I thought about the working name that M.S. had for the S.B. - the Swedish Greenegglayer... hmmmm... the SWEDISH Greenegglayer! What color is the Swedish Flag? BLUE and GOLDen yellow!!! Is it possible that M.S. was working on a patriotic chicken?!?! Something akin to the Bresse of France, but instead of a meat bird, a production layer to feed the family? Or maybe as a tribute to some Swedish historical event like the Jubilee Orpington was to Queen Elizabeth's Diamond Jubilee celebration? We may never know, but I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.
Just another idea for y'all to mull over as you go about your day today.
And, because I didn't stir up things enough yesterday,
As my brain continued in overdrive about this while I was driving all over town yesterday, I had one of those mind-blowing moments. Why had I not thought of this before? I thought about the working name that M.S. had for the S.B. - the Swedish Greenegglayer... hmmmm... the SWEDISH Greenegglayer! What color is the Swedish Flag? BLUE and GOLDen yellow!!! Is it possible that M.S. was working on a patriotic chicken?!?! Something akin to the Bresse of France, but instead of a meat bird, a production layer to feed the family? Or maybe as a tribute to some Swedish historical event like the Jubilee Orpington was to Queen Elizabeth's Diamond Jubilee celebration? We may never know, but I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.
Just another idea for y'all to mull over as you go about your day today.
HeatherBelle
In the Brooder
We have a beautiful six-month old (just shy of; May 10, 2017 hatch date) Silverudd's Blue cockerel that we would like to trade for 1-2 SB pullets. He is descendant from Greenfire Farms' second import stock; We can provide info of the breeders of his lineage. He is just coming into his sexual maturity (attempted to mount his sister yesterday before other hens in the flock showed him the error of his ways, lol). He is one of three SB's that we got straight run; two of which are cockerels. Please call/text me, Heather, at 850-483-1517, only if you're seriously interested please. If you call, please leave a message. We are in Pensacola and are willing to travel/meet for trade. He has been raised on organic feed, backyard free-range in a small mixed flock. He has never been given antibiotics. (Cross-posting from Isbar thread)
Photos from today of him (Oskar is what we call him):
Photos of his sire and the two SB hens from the breeder we purchased him from:
Photos from today of him (Oskar is what we call him):
Photos of his sire and the two SB hens from the breeder we purchased him from:
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