Sled dog breeding

[Americano Blue]

That's not how taking a pup back works. If a good breeder sells a dog and it ends up having an inheritable, genetic disease, the breeder wants to know so as to figure out why the dog has it, which parent has produced this disease in other litters, etc. The breeder, who should have done health screens on the parents before the breeding that produced the sick pup, will take that dog back no matter what age the symptoms manifested. This is why buying a puppy that has a health garuntee, whose parents had health tests, and who has a contract, is so important.

When I go dog shopping for a puppy if I don't see hip and eye tests on the parents, that's a huge red flag. If there is no section in the contract that gives the breeder the right to take the dog back, for reasons A, B, C, D, that's another huge red flag. And finally if there is no health garuntee, nothing that holds the breeder responsible if the puppy ends up with a bad genetic disease, well another red flag. If these are missing from the contract, of if there is no contract at all, I walk away and won't buy. The contract is to protect both breeder and buyer, if it's all sales finale thing, it's probably a puppy mill or back yard breeder who had 2 dogs and bred for money.

My mom bred pugs about 15 years ago. Now she did not do health screens, she didn't know about them. But there was a family who purchased a puppy. They were told how to keep it safe and happy. They called and brought the pup back a few months later. The pups jaw was broken, and very crooked. They admitted that they had put it on the sofa, the dog jumped off and broke its jaw. They also stated that they did not take it to the vet. My mom was under no obligation to take this puppy back, it's jaw was the new owners fault, not something related to her breeding. but she not only took it back, she took it to the vet, and she eventually found the puppy a home with an old man who had recently lost his companion pug to old age. He didn't care that the dog would have a crooked face or need soft foods for the rest of its life. My mom gave the pup to him. That pup ended up being the much pampered and spoiled companion for that old man for years. It got a much better life with him than it would have gotten withits first owners. And that's what my mom cared about.

There is a section in my contract for Phantom if I do A, B, C, D, then the breeder has the right to take him from me. If Phantom has E, F, G, then the breeder is held responsible and should do 1 of a couple things to make it right. This is how a contract should be when buying a puppy.

by gets sick, i meant like the dog ate something bad and they are to lazy to go to the vet. If it genetic then you can take it back. Most musher breed differently then show or pet breeder.
You do want the dog to have a future but still, breeding for mushing is different.

 

[Americano Blue]

This is a really hard thread, and I don't think the posts are ever going to make both sides happy.

Americano Blue has some REALLY good and true points regarding breeding working sled dogs. Most (but not all) mushers do breed differently than any "lower 48" show breeder or non-backyard breeder.

But the problem is that the OP, SternRose, lives in Kansas. There is ZERO market for sled dogs in Kansas. I have lived there many, many years all over the state.

So the "show dog" breeders are going to continue to bump heads with the "mushing" breeders because SternRose will need to be marketing/selling her dogs in a non-mushing area.

See the problem?

We've gone 366 posts now just talking in the same circle...

I like the way res puts it

 

[Americano Blue]

http://healthysleddogs.wordpress.com/

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/cold-weather-safety-for-dogsinsights-from-a-sled-dog-veterinarian

 

[Starfire669]

by gets sick, i meant like the dog ate something bad and they are to lazy to go to the vet. If it genetic then you can take it back. Most musher breed differently then show or pet breeder.
You do want the dog to have a future but still, breeding for mushing is different.

What about problems such as hip dysphasia that can take years to manifest? The dog won't show signs for years, maybe you have bred him/her and the puppies have it too? Then you are responsible for all those puppies, and could be held responsible by the buyers as well. It is well worth having breeding stock tested to prevent bringing pups into this world that will suffer from the disease, as well as show that you did everything you could to try and ensure the pups would be healthy. Health screens before breeding is one big thing that separates puppy mills and backyard breeders from breeders trying to improve the breed. Proof of health screens is also a protection for the breeder in the event a pup does end up with a disease.

Then what about those diseases that are genetically recessive? A dog can be a carrier, not show symptoms and pass it to pups. This is why knowing your lines is very important, you can have 2 perfectly healthy litters, then on the 3rd you get a pup or 2 that has a genetic problem. You then have to figure out why this happened. What made this litter different from the first 2? Was the dog bred to a different partner? If the disease is recessive, then both parent dogs had to be carriers to produce pups that had the disease. So now you know both dogs are carriers. Then you have to decide if continuing to breed them to other dogs is an option or do you remove them from your breeding program entirely. You definately will not want to breed them to each other again, not if you know it will produce pups that suffer from the disease. And the odds are that most or all the pups from their litter are either afflicted with the disease or are carriers of the disease.

Good breeders know genetics, their lines, the diseases their breed suffers from, temperment issues, and much more and they take all of this into account when planning a breeding. And rather than be less important in working dogs, it is and should be more important. Pets dogs lead relatively pampered lives, and are not put under the same stress as working dogs. A working dog with a disease will not thrive or do its job as well as a healthy dog. The same is true of humans, pain, bad bones or muscles, arthritis, cataracts, and much more impact our lives in dramatic ways. Why would any working animals be different?

 

[SternRose]

Contracts can and do vary from breeder to breeder. My contract is a signed document that has the breeders and my personal information and signatures on it. It is filed in my filing cabinet for safe keeping and I will not scan and upload a copy because of the information contained in it.

Some breeders do put copies of the contract online, others do not. My breeder sat down and went over the contract with me in person, explaining sections I had questions on before we signed it.

NP, I was just asking because one of the breeds I was looking at didnt have one on there website. But they are to far away. 3hrs and 30minutes

 

[Americano Blue]

http://www.seeingdoublesleddogracing.com/dog-faqs.html

http://www.webheads.co.uk/sdcom/press/info/info1.htm

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/interviews/stollertips.htm

 

[Americano Blue]

What about problems such as hip dysphasia that can take years to manifest? The dog won't show signs for years, maybe you have bred him/her and the puppies have it too? Then you are responsible for all those puppies, and could be held responsible by the buyers as well. It is well worth having breeding stock tested to prevent bringing pups into this world that will suffer from the disease, as well as show that you did everything you could to try and ensure the pups would be healthy. Health screens before breeding is one big thing that separates puppy mills and backyard breeders from breeders trying to improve the breed. Proof of health screens is also a protection for the breeder in the event a pup does end up with a disease.

Then what about those diseases that are genetically recessive? A dog can be a carrier, not show symptoms and pass it to pups. This is why knowing your lines is very important, you can have 2 perfectly healthy litters, then on the 3rd you get a pup or 2 that has a genetic problem. You then have to figure out why this happened. What made this litter different from the first 2? Was the dog bred to a different partner? If the disease is recessive, then both parent dogs had to be carriers to produce pups that had the disease. So now you know both dogs are carriers. Then you have to decide if continuing to breed them to other dogs is an option or do you remove them from your breeding program entirely. You definately will not want to breed them to each other again, not if you know it will produce pups that suffer from the disease. And the odds are that most or all the pups from their litter are either afflicted with the disease or are carriers of the disease.

Good breeders know genetics, their lines, the diseases their breed suffers from, temperment issues, and much more and they take all of this into account when planning a breeding. And rather than be less important in working dogs, it is and should be more important. Pets dogs lead relatively pampered lives, and are not put under the same stress as working dogs. A working dog with a disease will not thrive or do its job as well as a healthy dog. The same is true of humans, pain, bad bones or muscles, arthritis, cataracts, and much more impact our lives in dramatic ways. Why would any working animals be different?

Honestly, taking dogs back depends on the situation, the breeder, and the musher.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
as I told you above, a good breeder wouldn't just agree to take the dog back in a situation like that. They would travel on their own dime and repossess the dog. No, the buyer wouldn't get any refund but you can guarantee that the dog wouldn't be in that home anymore

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
Most contracts will give a deadline for doing x-rays. OFA will grade hips on a preliminary basis at 4 months old, give official results at 2. Any dog used for any purpose can and should have xrays done. Even if you don't send them to OFA, a decent vet can give you an idea of how they look. If there is a questionable result, then you spend the $20 or so and have them graded by OFA. Most breeders say to have them done by 2 years old, some give a bit of leeway in how long you have. HD isn't something that "develops" though some things can make what would have been a mild problem much much worse. Many genetic issues now have tests so that you can know if your dog is a carrier. If not, then you know by the lines. It still happens, if no dog in the line is bred to that "wrong" dog and produced a litter with problems, then there will eventually be a first time. But you still do everything possible to take care of it. I will disagree with the last part. Temperament is most important in PET lines. People who work their dogs know dogs. They have more control of the environment and are much more likely to recognize a potential bad situation before trouble starts. Pet dogs haven't got that safety net. They are expected to be great with kids and strange kids who come over to visit. To protect from bad guys but to always recognize the difference between a bad guy and the meter reader. To be friendly with every person and dog they meet, unless the owner doesn't want them to. All with little or no training.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
that isn't far. They might even meet you halfway.