Smokey Pearl Color outcome!

[Ashleyboz]

We have been hatching our Smokey Pearl hen eggs that have been running with our Black Mottled Cochin bantam. We are getting what looks like our Smokey pearl hens with the yellow legs and feet and red combs. Then we are getting some with dark feed and tiny combs and paint looking. While watching them it seems the ones that resemble Smokey pearls are larger and act like roosters. The smaller dark legged ones are chill and mind their business. Could the cross happen to be sex linked? Or am I jumping the gun? I do know with the rooster and Smokey’s we will get paints. I did notice some are getting red to orange spots also. Could anyone tell me what I could expect?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Okay, so your rooster is not a pure Cochin. I honestly don't think he's got any Cochin in him at all based on his traits. He looks more to me like a d'Uccle mix, and likely not a first generation mix based on his traits. He is the source of the little crests, the beards, and the extra toes on the chicks.

The smokey pearl has light shanks and so does the rooster, but that being a sexlinked dominant trait, the rooster could be split for it. If he is the only rooster, then he would have to be as otherwise you would not see dark-shanked chicks at all. So about half of his daughters should have dark shanks like you're seeing, with the other half having light shanks like their brothers. This means you would not be able to sex all of his chicks this way, but you can be pretty confident that any dark-shanked chicks like those pictured are female.

White Cochins are white due to a different gene than the smokey pearl, recessive white, so a White Cochin's offspring would not be white unless bred to another white bird. The smokey pearl is white because of the dominant white gene, which lets flecks of black through, and that gene will also let red pigment leak through as you're seeing in some of the chicks. The only other bird I see in your pictures that could produce similar chicks is the red hen with white tail feathers. She also has the dominant white gene, and, when bred to a mostly black rooster like the one pictured, could produce chicks that are mostly white with black flecks and some red leaking through. So either the smokey pearl or the red hen is the mother if those are all of the possible mothers pictured.

As for what to expect from those chicks, I would expect either white with black flecks or white with black flecks and red patches. The male with the red starting to emerge especially is likely to develop a bit more of that red as he matures, mostly in his hackle, shoulder, and saddle area. Pullets that develop red are more likely to develop it more spread out, possibly concentrated to the chest if at all.

 

[NatJ]

We are getting what looks like our Smokey pearl hens with the yellow legs and feet and red combs. Then we are getting some with dark feed and tiny combs and paint looking. While watching them it seems the ones that resemble Smokey pearls are larger and act like roosters. The smaller dark legged ones are chill and mind their business. Could the cross happen to be sex linked?

You might have sexlinked cross there. There is a gene for dark vs. light skin that is on the Z sex chromsome, which means it can sometimes be used to make sexlinks. Using a dark-legged rooster with a light-legged hen can produce daughters with dark legs and sons with light legs.

A few other genes can make the leg color be confusing one way or the other, meaning offspring from some crosses are easy to sex by leg color and offspring from some other crosses are not (even if it seems they should be.)

If yours are coming out as two distinct groups, with all signs pointing to the light legs as males and the dark legs as females, I think you probably do have a set of rooster and hens that produce clearly sexable chicks. The chicks you posted do indeed look to be dark-legged females and light-legged males (that fellow with the nice red comb and wattles is pretty obvious!)

If it was a Cochin hen and a dark-skinned rooster, then you would have made skin color sexlinks. But the opposite cross should not. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, there shouldn't be any dark skin in any of the offspring from a Mottled Cochin rooster, as he should be pure for light skin and pass that on to all of his offspring. Do you have any pictures of him, especially that show his legs? Pictures of the smokey pearl hen might help as well, as I'm a bit puzzled where crests and extra toes (and possibly a beard on that last chick?) may have come from in this cross as well.

I agree that the stated breeds should not be producing this result, and it might be informative to see photos of them.

 

[Ashleyboz]

You might have sexlinked cross there. There is a gene for dark vs. light skin that is on the Z sex chromsome, which means it can sometimes be used to make sexlinks. Using a dark-legged rooster with a light-legged hen can produce daughters with dark legs and sons with light legs.

A few other genes can make the leg color be confusing one way or the other, meaning offspring from some crosses are easy to sex by leg color and offspring from some other crosses are not (even if it seems they should be.)

If yours are coming out as two distinct groups, with all signs pointing to the light legs as males and the dark legs as females, I think you probably do have a set of rooster and hens that produce clearly sexable chicks. The chicks you posted do indeed look to be dark-legged females and light-legged males (that fellow with the nice red comb and wattles is pretty obvious!)


I agree that the stated breeds should not be producing this result, and it might be informative to see photos of them.

Absolutely! We’ve hatched 6 clutches and all have been yellow or dark legs and now seem to also see distinct paint and Smokey pearl speck look. Unless I’m totally missing something here but the only other white bird we have to throw these babies would be the white cochin..

 

[Ashleyboz]

Cochin Bantam should be just like any other Cochin, just smaller than the big ones.

They should match for leg color, number of toes, lack of crest, lack of beard, etc.

What would you say he is? I ordered him from Meyer and he resembles every bit of what I ordered. He didn’t have that feathery feet as my standard Cochins big while researching some don’t have the super full and thick.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

This was super helpful!! I really appreciate your info! I left out one important word with our one and only rooster (for now) Cochin Bantam

What would you say he is? I ordered him from Meyer and he resembles every bit of what I ordered. He didn’t have that feathery feet as my standard Cochins big while researching some don’t have the super full and thick.

Yeah, speaking as someone who breeds Cochin bantams and has owned Cochins of varying quality for a little more than a decade now, he's definitely not a Cochin bantam, either. That's a mix up of some kind. From Meyer, my first thought would have been Green Queen or Cookies and Cream (though I don't know if they have a bantam version of the latter). The plumage coloring is for the most part correct for what a Mottled Cochin would have, yes, but everything else about him is wrong for the breed.

Hatchery bantam Cochins can stray a bit from the perfectly round and fluffy shape that Cochins are meant to have due to the less selective breeding practices in hatcheries... but not by that much. Even the worst bantam Cochins I have seen from hatcheries don't end up with incorrect dominant traits such as crests, extra toes, or beards, traits that pure Cochins could never have and that could only result from crossing them to something else. Comparing him to the picture you pulled up from Meyer, you can also see that he has the improper shape for even their Cochins. Cochins generally do not have distinct tail feathers, instead having what is called a 'cushion' of fluff on their butt ends, and even those poorly bred to the point where their tail feathers stick out past that cushion do not have a large fanned tail like your rooster.

 

[Ashleyboz]

Yeah, speaking as someone who breeds Cochin bantams and has owned Cochins of varying quality for a little more than a decade now, he's definitely not a Cochin bantam, either. That's a mix up of some kind. From Meyer, my first thought would have been Green Queen or Cookies and Cream (though I don't know if they have a bantam version of the latter). The plumage coloring is for the most part correct for what a Mottled Cochin would have, yes, but everything else about him is wrong for the breed.

Hatchery bantam Cochins can stray a bit from the perfectly round and fluffy shape that Cochins are meant to have due to the less selective breeding practices in hatcheries... but not by that much. Even the worst bantam Cochins I have seen from hatcheries don't end up with incorrect dominant traits such as crests, extra toes, or beards, traits that pure Cochins could never have and that could only result from crossing them to something else. Comparing him to the picture you pulled up from Meyer, you can also see that he has the improper shape for even their Cochins. Cochins generally do not have distinct tail feathers, instead having what is called a 'cushion' of fluff on their butt ends, and even those poorly bred to the point where their tail feathers stick out past that cushion do not have a large fanned tail like your rooster.

Wanna know something crazy. I had originally ordered a cookies and cream. I had called them with questions about him and and they said this.

Hello Ashley!

Thank you for providing the photos of your handsome man! He does appear to be a Mottled Cochin Bantam based on his straight comb and no crest. I did go ahead and issue you a refund for him since we sent the wrong breed. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with.

No wonder I have chicks with crazy tufts and crests. I have to feed yet but before I’m going to go throw rocks and curse a lot!

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

If it was a Cochin hen and a dark-skinned rooster, then you would have made skin color sexlinks. But the opposite cross should not. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, there shouldn't be any dark skin in any of the offspring from a Mottled Cochin rooster, as he should be pure for light skin and pass that on to all of his offspring. Do you have any pictures of him, especially that show his legs? Pictures of the smokey pearl hen might help as well, as I'm a bit puzzled where crests and extra toes (and possibly a beard on that last chick?) may have come from in this cross as well.

As for the reddish spots, that's just color leakage. Color leakage is typical in mixes of different colors. Since smokey pearls are a hybrid already and not a pure breed, most likely it's from the smokey pearl side unless there are some reddish tones on your Mottled Cochin.

 

[NatJ]

Absolutely! We’ve hatched 6 clutches and all have been yellow or dark legs and now seem to also see distinct paint and Smokey pearl speck look. Unless I’m totally missing something here but the only other white bird we have to throw these babies would be the white cochin..

For what @pipdzipdnreadytogo said, I agree with most of it.

The smokey pearl has light shanks and so does the rooster, but that being a sexlinked dominant trait, the rooster could be split for it. If he is the only rooster, then he would have to be as otherwise you would not see dark-shanked chicks at all. So about half of his daughters should have dark shanks like you're seeing, with the other half having light shanks like their brothers. This means you would not be able to sex all of his chicks this way, but you can be pretty confident that any dark-shanked chicks like those pictured are female.

@Ashleyboz have you seen any light-shanked females, in any of the clutches?

Daughters get their light or dark shanks just from their father, not their mother. Since he has produced at least one daughter with dark shanks we know he has the gene for dark shanks. If he has also produced at least one daughter with light shanks we will know he also has the gene for light shanks. Pipd thinks the rooster appears to have light shanks, I think they look dark in the photos-- that might be a difference in the screen each person is looking at, which is why I'm trying to figure it out from the leg colors of his daughters.

 

[Ashleyboz]

Okay, so your rooster is not a pure Cochin. I honestly don't think he's got any Cochin in him at all based on his traits. He looks more to me like a d'Uccle mix, and likely not a first generation mix based on his traits. He is the source of the little crests, the beards, and the extra toes on the chicks.

The smokey pearl has light shanks and so does the rooster, but that being a sexlinked dominant trait, the rooster could be split for it. If he is the only rooster, then he would have to be as otherwise you would not see dark-shanked chicks at all. So about half of his daughters should have dark shanks like you're seeing, with the other half having light shanks like their brothers. This means you would not be able to sex all of his chicks this way, but you can be pretty confident that any dark-shanked chicks like those pictured are female.

White Cochins are white due to a different gene than the smokey pearl, recessive white, so a White Cochin's offspring would not be white unless bred to another white bird. The smokey pearl is white because of the dominant white gene, which lets flecks of black through, and that gene will also let red pigment leak through as you're seeing in some of the chicks. The only other bird I see in your pictures that could produce similar chicks is the red hen with white tail feathers. She also has the dominant white gene, and, when bred to a mostly black rooster like the one pictured, could produce chicks that are mostly white with black flecks and some red leaking through. So either the smokey pearl or the red hen is the mother if those are all of the possible mothers pictured.

As for what to expect from those chicks, I would expect either white with black flecks or white with black flecks and red patches. The male with the red starting to emerge especially is likely to develop a bit more of that red as he matures, mostly in his hackle, shoulder, and saddle area. Pullets that develop red are more likely to develop it more spread out, possibly concentrated to the chest if at all.

This was super helpful!! I really appreciate your info! I left out one important word with our one and only rooster (for now) Cochin Bantam