So upset

[Doublete]

Goats can be hard to keep confined. Don't blame yourself too much. My goats stay in because we have an understanding that I keep them happy and fed and they stay in. On occasion one will leap the fence just to show me they can. They know when the electric is plugged in and when it isn't.

Most dogs need one good zap by an electric fence to never go near it again. I have used a shock collar, but they require you watch the dog constantly. With the electric fence you don't need to.

We use a combo of welded wire with electric fence strands. Don't use cattle panels if your goat has horns. They will constantly get stuck.

Kassie loves people so much she gets out sometimes to come visit me and follow me.
Neither have horns... they’ve been fine in my round pen panels but like I said we are switching fencing and may put a strand or two of electric.

I unfortunately believe the collars have a place in a good training system. For certain high instinct dogs it takes that little reminder to pay attention to the alpha instead of their instinct.
I’ve trained horses professionally for 20 years and worked with several professional dog trainers enough that I train my own dogs. I don’t use negative reinforcement. But with certain dogs you have to use your own common sense and instincts when working them. Especially working breeds

 

[Fishkeeper]

I'm also very wary of using the "alpha" idea of training. For one thing, dogs aren't wolves. For another, wolves don't actually HAVE that alpha/beta/omega pack system that people think they have. That was a myth. It started when some people studying wolves put a bunch of wolves from unrelated packs in a pen and watched how they interacted. It formed an excellent model of prison dynamics, but isn't a good model of a real wolf pack. Most wolf packs will be made up of a breeding pair and their pups. The ones with multiple older wolves, dynamics change in different situations. Wolf A is 'alpha' when they're hunting, wolf B is 'alpha' when feeding, wolf C is 'alpha' when playing. It's not "one wolf is the boss and beats the others into submission" like it's portrayed.
And, again, dogs aren't wolves. Feral dog packs don't have the same pack dynamics as wolves.
I don't know if that's what you're thinking of, or if you just mean 'alpha' as in "I am in charge of the dogs because they are dogs".

Oh, and if you use shock collars, you use negative reinforcement.

 

[SurferchickinSB]

Kassie loves people so much she gets out sometimes to come visit me and follow me.
Neither have horns... they’ve been fine in my round pen panels but like I said we are switching fencing and may put a strand or two of electric.

I unfortunately believe the collars have a place in a good training system. For certain high instinct dogs it takes that little reminder to pay attention to the alpha instead of their instinct.
I’ve trained horses professionally for 20 years and worked with several professional dog trainers enough that I train my own dogs. I don’t use negative reinforcement. But with certain dogs you have to use your own common sense and instincts when working them. Especially working breeds

Also, she adopted them when they were three and it sounds like they had little or no training, sort of neglected. It is 10 times harder to train a dog like that in my opinion than starting from scratch with a little puppy that has no bad habits and can easily be shown what to do no matter the breed.When I was working with my dogs and my chickens, it was not my big lab that I was worried about at all. I have had her since she was nine weeks old, the one I was most worried about was my 5 pound Chihuahua! I adopted her as a rescue.

 

[Doublete]

Also, she adopted them when they were three and it sounds like they had little or no training, sort of neglected. It is 10 times harder to train a dog like that in my opinion than starting from scratch with a little puppy that has no bad habits and can easily be shown what to do no matter the breed.When I was working with my dogs and my chickens, it was not my big lab that I was worried about at all. I have had her since she was nine weeks old, the one I was most worried about was my 5 pound Chihuahua! I adopted her as a rescue.

Thank you. Yes they had a horrible start in life.

I am an alpha because I HAVE to be. They will pack against me and everyone. I’ve seen them do many things I don’t trust anymore. No I don’t beat them into submission and shock collars are NOT used the way you are insinuating.

So we will agree to disagree on training methods. I was taught to use an electric collar by a very well known protection dog trainer in DC. It is not meant to make them submissive.

 

[SurferchickinSB]

Thank you. Yes they had a horrible start in life.

I am an alpha because I HAVE to be. They will pack against me and everyone. I’ve seen them do many things I don’t trust anymore. No I don’t beat them into submission and shock collars are NOT used the way you are insinuating.

So we will agree to disagree on training methods. I was taught to use an electric collar by a very well known protection dog trainer in DC. It is not meant to make them submissive.

That’s why I suggested the shock collars only be used with people that are properly trained to use them, otherwise I agree, they can be abusive unless they are used properly.

 

[cassie]

This is probably no help, but in almost all cases when a dog attacked my livestock it was a German Shepherd. A good friend had several valuable goats shredded by a German Shepherd that jumped into the barn through an open window six feet from the ground. What I am saying is this. German Shepherds have many wonderful qualities, but being safe around livestock, particularly sheep, goats, and small animals like chickens and rabbits, is not one of them. You just have to have good fences to keep the animals apart. Training will help. It will minimize the risk but I don't think anything will eliminate it.

 

[Doublete]

This is probably no help, but in almost all cases when a dog attacked my livestock it was a German Shepherd. A good friend had several valuable goats shredded by a German Shepherd that jumped into the barn through an open window six feet from the ground. What I am saying is this. German Shepherds have many wonderful qualities, but being safe around livestock, particularly sheep, goats, and small animals like chickens and rabbits, is not one of them. You just have to have good fences to keep the animals apart. Training will help. It will minimize the risk but I don't think anything will eliminate it.

They definitely have an instinct and it sucks.
My first German Shepherd was the sweetest thing.. was good with horses. I used to take him trail riding with me.
My other one spent the first year of her life tied to a tree til her “owner” threatened to shoot her and we brought her home. She was good with everything except chickens and rabbits.

But I don’t think I’ve ever had a dog I trust with small “prey” animals.
This whole them not being healthfully afraid of the horses and goats enough to look to me for direction is a new one. Their fear of the unknown has led them to be aggressive..
But I got them through it with my indoor cats...
I’ll never trust them with the horses and goats but we WILL all live peacefully. It is simply not up for discussion.