So western pleasure sorta scares me.

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
I dont look down on stock horses, I look down on the way that western pleasure horses are rode.

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

I dont look down on stock horses, I look down on the way that western pleasure horses are rode.

Me too.


Rusty​

 

[Celtic Hill]

I think we should just stop with this because clearly it went in a direction I didnt want it to.

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

I dont understand why you are taking this so personally because I said nothing about working horses, because i have a very high respect for them. What I initially started this topic on was Western Pleasure.

You're right. You did. And mostly I stayed out of it until that gay crack that somebody made. At that point my resentment of the attitude of a lot of dressage people just spilled over into this. I have been slammed so many times because of the attitude that "I can't possibly know anything because I ride stock horses and only a true dressage enthusiast has taken the time to learn about horses." It just isn't true. But I openly admit YOU never said that. So I apologize for letting my resentment spill over into your thread.

Pax.


Rusty​

 

[onthespot]

Me three, about how WP are ridden. I guess we agree more than disagree, despite all the back and forth. It's a good thread. Don't kill it.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
You're right. You did. And mostly I stayed out of it until that gay crack that somebody made. At that point my resentment of the attitude of a lot of dressage people just spilled over into this. I have been slammed so many times because of the attitude that "I can't possibly know anything because I ride stock horses and only a true dressage enthusiast has taken the time to learn about horses." It just isn't true. But I openly admit YOU never said that. So I apologize for letting my resentment spill over into your thread.

Pax.


Rusty

On a side note I want to team Pen!!!! Lol, its kinda getting a little more popular up here.

And my fancy pants dressage horse knows how to neck rein and work on a loose rein. XD

 

[patandchickens]

Oh well, sure, if this is going to turn into an "argue both abstract theory and human behavior" thread, count me in, LOL

I don't think I agree very much with any of the above posters, although definitely with bits and pieces of pretty much everyone. Here's why:

1) Man oh man, the gap between what dressage is meant to be and what goes around the ring at a dressage show is almost as big as the gap between what a western pleasure horse is meant to be and what goes around the ring in a WP class.

2) Many factually-ignorant things have been said over the years by dressage proponents, including on this thread regarding historical issues; however this does not mean that dressage itself is just a load b.s., nor just a foofy arbitrary art form either.

I would suggest that the truth lies somewhere in between. The roots of dressage do lie in quasi-utilitarian pursuits (battlefield mobility and ability to awe and disconcert the enemy). However dressage as it has been practiced for, what, probably the past 400+ years (and I question whether one should call a lot of the old-timey stuff, e.g. Duke of Newcastle and remember he was one of the *nice* ones, "dressage" in the modern sense of the word) is BOTH an utilitarian means to utilitarian ends AND an abstract non-useful art form. The upper levels of dressage are basically useless from a practical standpoint, those horses are burnin' rubber like mad goin' basically nowhere, it is the OPPOSITE of an efficient way of doing practical things. However the principles and skills used to develop a horse to the abstract-art-form upper levels are also useful when applied in many real-world utilitarian things (straightness, the ability to get the hind end quickly and powerfully under oneself, the ability to *use* the topline, etc)

3) I think it is bizarre to say that western riding is less historically deep-rooted than dressage, since in very large part it comes from the same roots and had many points of contact along the way, up til a coupla hundred years ago or so. Hint, think about Spain and the marks it has left on the world. Notice that modern dressage really is pretty MODERN, like mainly developed in the past coupla hundred years and particularly in the past 50ish years. Look at the Spanish Riding School, even back in the good ol days. The horses are in large part very correct and athletic but they do not follow the modern showring fashions and would not do real well in serious competition.

4) I do not see that dressage folks have even remotely cornered the market on good horsemanship. I have known as many or more really good horsemen in other disciplines (hunters including actual field hunters, ranchwork-type western, driving, and distance riding) as in dressage. And though I never had the pleasure of seeing them in person, from what I have read and seen of Bill and Tom Dorrance, I think they had a better sense of crucial dressage principles than the extreme vast majority of Actual Dressage Trainers do.

Note that in this context, by "really good horsemen" I don't mean riding/handling skills (although, that too), I mean people who understand how a horse's body is meant to work and can refine and straighten and balance and 'charge up' the natural design of the horse into a superb and CORRECT athlete that does as much as the equine body can do and does it healthfully and beautifully. Of course "correct" depends on the task; correct body use for a canter pirouette just IS different than for galloping after hounds or cutting cows.

5) to the extent that there is some truth in saying that "dressage is the essence of training and riding horses", it is only SOME aspects of dressage for SOME purposes. For instance, aside from somewhat straightening the horse and making it controllable and correcting really pathological use fo the topline, dressage really has very little to contribute to racing. It is just too different. People have found that going too dressage-y with serious jumpers is also a mistake, as the requirements of jumping big fences are in some ways pretty different. And as for those things that DO transfer from dressage to essentially-all disciplines... they are not unique to dressage.

At most, I think you could fairly say that dressage aims to take a number of basic principles of how a horse's body is meant to work, and develop them to a greater and ultimately-pure-art-form degree. But that is a far cry from saying it is The Fundamental Equestrian Essence or anything like that.

Signed,

Pat, more or less a dressage person (has ridden thru third-fourth level, owns a half Lipizzaner, etc) but taking a very jaundiced view of BOTH the super-dressage-enthusiast camp AND the dressage-is-snobbish-and-arbitrary camp

 

[onthespot]

back to the form follows function, a Lippizaner is much more likely to stand up to a levade or lots of piaffing than a stock type horse built low in the front with a long straight neck and short cannons. Some people say "Any horse can be taught to do "X" with enough time and effort." but I disagree. Not every horse is mentally or physically suited to do ALL kinds of riding that we have dreamed up for them to do, most of which is a far cry from what nature meant them to do, walk for miles, head low, grazing, short burst of speed at will.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
I agree, like i said in one of my posts. Any breed can do anything, to an extent

 

[patandchickens]

Well yes, and I can teach my cat to walk on a leash and fetch (I really *have*, in fact, with multiple cats, at least the ones that've found it entertaining), but it seems to me that if that's all you mean by "any horse can do anything" then what does it really MEAN? And it is certainly not true that any horse can do anything WELL, at a level greater than the most rudimentary.

if there is such dislike over wp or other types of ridding, then why don't the fussers do something to change it. go out, ride wp on a nice horse, show better, do better, win and cause change. or hang around an internet forum and whine about it.

Can't speak for others, but personally I have ZERO interest in trying to change showring WP, for a lot of reasons. 1) near-zero interest in competition. 2) no money to do it at that level even if I wanted to. 3) awareness of the complete futility of showing up with a correctly but unfashionably going horse, since even in the best case scenario all that'd happen is people will say 'oh gee, that looks nice, but you know it ain't WP' and you go home ribbonless. And most of all 4) it is a free country, people can twist up their horses however they want to and we're not supposed to be able to stop 'em, and I don't think WP horses are necessarily that much more miserable on average than most other show disciplines' horses; so, not being able to change the world, I would rather just concentrate on my OWN riding [er, not that I am riding at the moment, since I've got young children and lousy footing] which believe me is quite a sufficiently lifetime-filling challenge to work on all on its own

Pat​