So western pleasure sorta scares me.

[Rusty Hills Farm]

because its just impossible to even consider that sports other then dressage may use even small elements of it right? like like striving for balance, smoothness, proper or even decent use of the back and hind end. an uphill or at the very least level top line.

ride a horse like that and you don't need to "crank" the head in, or use gadgets or even a curb bit. for a stock horse (conformation wise) ridden like that with a little time and consistency their head is naturally going to be level or close to it. a responsive calm horse isn't going to have the nose held way out or tucked far it, it defeats the purpose and theres no sound or smooth contact with the bit reins and hands that way.

This is so very true. But babyblue, you shouldn't say that out loud. Y'see, since you are not a dressage person, you cannot possibly know anything about horses. Personally I never admit out loud that I've read every dressage book I can get my hands on to see what someone else might teach me, as well as Tom Durrance and Matlock Rose, or that I spent time with Olympic coach Hans Renz, or that I'm a fan of Al Dunning. To dressage people, suggesting anyone knows anything about horses except other dressage people is blasphemy and they will trash us within an inch of our lives because they are convinced we are ignorant hacks who know NOTHING. I do NOT ride dressage. I ride cutting and reining (and yes, I AM gay so I guess it's a good thing I never tried endurance). My stock horses are built differently than dressage horses because they were bred to do different things. Get that much lift on the forehand and how is the cutter supposed to get eye-to-eye with the cow so he can read and anticipate him?!?

But what could *I* possibly know about ANYTHING concerning horses? I've only ridden almost daily for about 40 years. But, you see, I committed that mortal sin of riding stock horses instead of dressage horses, so OF COURSE, I cannot possibly know ANYTHING at all! And to think that people call ME arrogant!!! Well, I ride stock horses and am darn proud of it. I am proud of how smooth and supple and athletic my horses are. I am proud that when my last stallion was 25 years old-- just 2 months before his death from cancer--riders would still stop by my barn and offer to buy him. They were always stunned and amazed when they found out how old he was because he was still muscular and fit and would jump the fences to go help the cowboys in the next pasture work their cows. He loved working THAT much. His son is a chip off the old block.

So dressage people, please give it a rest already. You do not have an exclusive on what makes a good using horse. The rest of us just don't brag about it, nor feel endlessly superior to the rest of the world.

A good horseman is a good horseman is a good horseman no matter WHAT his discipline.


Rusty​

 

[onthespot]

I agree rusty, different horses are built to carry themselves and their riders differently. NO horses are built to be popelled over the bit and then hacked back to carry themselves behind it. That is what I mostly see, at every barn. Andalusians, Paints, TB/WB, reiners, trail riders, arabians, gaited horses, driving horses. When did "enough" become too much? To me the key to training is how you time the release, leg/whip/bit/voice. Everyone seems to be in such a hurry these days, and headed nowhere. Most disciplines. Maybe all the competent people are hiding out, not attending shows, not out riding their horses in public, and putting their worst videos and photos in their advertising on websites, magazines and for sale ads. I don't think so.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
This is so very true. But babyblue, you shouldn't say that out loud. Y'see, since you are not a dressage person, you cannot possibly know anything about horses. Personally I never admit out loud that I've read every dressage book I can get my hands on to see what someone else might teach me, as well as Tom Durrance and Matlock Rose, or that I spent time with Olympic coach Hans Renz, or that I'm a fan of Al Dunning. To dressage people, suggesting anyone knows anything about horses except other dressage people is blasphemy and they will trash us within an inch of our lives because they are convinced we are ignorant hacks who know NOTHING. I do NOT ride dressage. I ride cutting and reining (and yes, I AM gay so I guess it's a good thing I never tried endurance). My stock horses are built differently than dressage horses because they were bred to do different things. Get that much lift on the forehand and how is the cutter supposed to get eye-to-eye with the cow so he can read and anticipate him?!?

But what could *I* possibly know about ANYTHING concerning horses? I've only ridden almost daily for about 40 years. But, you see, I committed that mortal sin of riding stock horses instead of dressage horses, so OF COURSE, I cannot possibly know ANYTHING at all! And to think that people call ME arrogant!!! Well, I ride stock horses and am darn proud of it. I am proud of how smooth and supple and athletic my horses are. I am proud that when my last stallion was 25 years old-- just 2 months before his death from cancer--riders would still stop by my barn and offer to buy him. They were always stunned and amazed when they found out how old he was because he was still muscular and fit and would jump the fences to go help the cowboys in the next pasture work their cows. He loved working THAT much. His son is a chip off the old block.

So dressage people, please give it a rest already. You do not have an exclusive on what makes a good using horse. The rest of us just don't brag about it, nor feel endlessly superior to the rest of the world.

A good horseman is a good horseman is a good horseman no matter WHAT his discipline.


Rusty

Its not that we think we are superior, it's just the fact that dressage is the essence of training and riding horses. Western pleasure, huntseat, saddleseat, ect just can not compare to dressage. These diciplines have been around for hundreds of years, not thousands. They havn't had their time to refine their training methods. If collecting a horse was as easy as having a pretty head set then the horse world would be perfect, but it isn't there are so manny more mechanics to it.

And also not all dressage people are perfect either. There are dressage people out there who use draw reins and in correct aids to make a horse look like a dressage horse to the naked eye. Im not perfect, and I dont claim to be. But it dosn't change that Dressage is the essense of horse training and every horse that has ever had a saddle on it's back should have the beginnings of dressage training, and every rider who ever sits in a saddle should have the basics of dressage training.

Lendon Gray Explains it all here:

 

[babyblue]

well at least some of the competent people are at home and doing not much, because guess what the economy and horse market are in the tank and not everyone can afford it. I cant afford to show full time and stay home with my children. heck I can no longer afford multipal horses either.


if there is such dislike over wp or other types of ridding, then why don't the fussers do something to change it. go out, ride wp on a nice horse, show better, do better, win and cause change. or hang around an internet forum and whine about it.



Rusty, I can not agree with you more. I would love to see a dressage horse even attempt the things that stock horses are bred and born to do. work a cow, move stock all day, drag logs and brush (I make my poor horse do real hard work sometimes) and then sprint home to give the grandkids a ridding lesson. rusty I also dont care if you old enough to be my father or too "gay" to do endurance (that comment really ticked me off by the way) I have the biggest crush on you ever right now.

 

[babyblue]

Quote:
well there you go. you just said yourself that dressage is the essence and basis of training and ridding. so dont be the teeniest bit surprised when people adapt and use parts of it for their own disciplines to get work done lol.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
I would LOVE to ride WP on a nice horse, and ect, and actually thats WHY I am riding dressage.

And there is no reason why any horse cant do anything, its just the matter of how it was raised an training, and true there is a certain extent where they can't physically do it any more due to their build. Like you wouldn't see a Irish Draught doing Grand prix jumpers, but can they jump? Yes, but there is a limit.

And dont let the comment about there only being gay ppl in endurance. Im gay and every other guy i have met at a show, with the excption with like two, are gay. It's a fact, w/e, straight guys just dont know what they are missing out on.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
well there you go. you just said yourself that dressage is the essence and basis of training and ridding. so dont be the teeniest bit surprised when people adapt and use parts of it for their own disciplines to get work done lol.

Im not, that's what i WANT, but to manny people just Half do it and dedicate their time to dressage, they might go out and see a clinic or read a book or watch some videos on youtube, but it takes a few years of dedication and the right trainer to fully understand how to adapt it.

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

Its not that we think we are superior, it's just the fact that dressage is the essence of training and riding horses. Western pleasure, huntseat, saddleseat, ect just can not compare to dressage. These diciplines have been around for hundreds of years, not thousands. They havn't had their time to refine their training methods. If collecting a horse was as easy as having a pretty head set then the horse world would be perfect, but it isn't there are so manny more mechanics to it.

People have been using horses for thousands of years. We've used them in war and commerce, working stock and pulling carts. What you are claiming as "dressage" was actually cavalry training to fight war more efficiently, I'm thinking. Humans didn't start to think about the riding of their horses as an art form for a very long time. And that IS what modern-day dressage IS--an art form. It is not a useful occupation the way driving, working stock, fighting wars is. To suggest that a working horse needs to start by first learning dressage is pure silliness--rather like saying a break-dancer needs to start by learning ballet! Yes, many dressage exercises ARE helpful. But why do you assume that they originated with dressage? I suspect they originated with working horses and were adapted to dressage in the quest to create a more beautiful, supple, responsive performance of your art form! And because they became part of the art form, they got written down and saved for future generations. Working horsemen look to the old masters and try to learn from them too. This is NOT exclusive to dressage horsemen. What IS exclusive to dressage enthusiasts is the attitude that you own the market on the knowledge from the past. We too build from the past. Many of our stock horse techniques did actually start in old Spain, got imported to Mexico, then moved northward, all the while evolving to suit the country, the horses, and the folks who were riding them. LOL a working cow horse is NOT about headset. He's about understanding cows.


Rusty​

 

[onthespot]

perhaps all dressage enthusiasts should start out by running a reining pattern on a first class reiner, or let a good babysitter cutting horse guide them through a minute or two of cutting a feisty calf from the herd and holding it back for the duration... wonder how many would stick with dressage exclusively, or look down so disparagingly at stock bred horses, LOL.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
People have been using horses for thousands of years. We've used them in war and commerce, working stock and pulling carts. What you are claiming as "dressage" was actually cavalry training to fight war more efficiently, I'm thinking. Humans didn't start to think about the riding of their horses as an art form for a very long time. And that IS what modern-day dressage IS--an art form. It is not a useful occupation the way driving, working stock, fighting wars is. To suggest that a working horse needs to start by first learning dressage is pure silliness--rather like saying a break-dancer needs to start by learning ballet! Yes, many dressage exercises ARE helpful. But why do you insist that they originated with dressage? I suspect they originated with working horses and were adapted to dressage in the quest to create a more beautiful, supple, responsive performance of your art form! And because they became part of the art form, they got written down and saved for future generations. Working horsemen look to the old masters and try to learn from them too. This is NOT exclusive to dressage horsemen. What IS exclusive to dressage enthusiasts is the attitude that you own the market on the knowledge from the past. We too build from the past. Many of our stock horse techniques did actually start in old Spain, got imported to Mexico, then moved northward, all the while evolving to suit the country, the horses, and the folks who were riding them. LOL a working cow horse is NOT about headset. He's about understanding cows.


Rusty

Yes dressage is an art, but it started with the horses training to be war horses. How could you expect half the war horses to do any of airs above grounds maneuvers with out dressage training? They couldn't.

I dont understand why you are taking this so personally because I said nothing about working horses, because i have a very high respect for them. What I initially started this topic on was Western Pleasure.

and break dancers need to learn the same basics that ballet dancers learn.