So western pleasure sorta scares me.

[welsummerchicks]

The FEI has some pretty strict restrictions as to age of competition horses, but that doesn't keep the horses out of the national level competitions.

Too, the vast majority of reiners will most likely, never go in an FEI event, ever, so I'm not sure it changes things much overall in the sport. The futurities continue, all the other practices continue - breaking at 1 1/2, all that. And people get FURIOUS if you suggest that breaking a youngster like that is bad for them. THEMS IS FIGHTIN' WORDS!

I was at a barn where people were breaking yearlings. Appaloosas, Arabians and Quarter Horses. Yearlings. However, the same scenario occured with the horses they 'waited' on - 2 years old, 2 1/2 years old.

What would happen is, these babies would refuse to go in to the riding arena. They all absolutely hated it, judging from how little they wanted to go into the arena. They would stand in the aisle and get beaten, just stand there and not move, and I mean BEATEN, and they still would not go in that riding arena.

There was more to it than that, though. Most of them, due to how they were fed, had severely contracted tendons, which I am sure made the work extremely painful. Their 'treatment' for contracted tendons was to put polo wraps on these babies and work 'em.

WP dropout rate is a serious puzzle. You'd think, how slow they go, how briefly they ride, how infrequently they ride, that they would last until they're 50. But they don't.

I can't stand up here and say show hunters all last forever, and a lot of THEM look sore in the ring to me too, but with the WP horses, it seems a lot worse.

The only thing one can really logically conclude, is that the nature of the work they do is what causes the huge dropout rate.

 

[babyblue]

Quote:
you are correct, its the type of work combined with starting age of the horse. the 4 beat jog (walk in the front jog in the back) and 4 beat lope (jog in the front sort of lope in the back) its not good for them. the lope feels kinda like... bum bum bum hitch, bum bum bum hitch and the horse either has to resort to doing different gaits with each set of legs, or a kinda twisting motion with the back and the hocks to get the slowness desired. it screws the back and legs up really quick. also the money is on the young horses, not the older ones. once you get past 5 you arnt going to make big time money unless you breed it. so most top end horses get retired sooner and if they are real lucky are still sound and or move onto something other then wp.

of the two horses I put pictures up of, bred by the same lady, started with ground work/driving young but ridding wasn't till close to three. Mitch is 17 I think and still a full time amateur event show horse, Dan is 21 and still a full time pleasure horse/full time kids 4h horse.

 

[onthespot]

I think the racing bunch has the worst dropout rate, something like 1% of started prospects even make it to the track? I doubt it's that bad for WP, I'd say maybe one in ten or so make it to the show and get points.

Yesterday I was at a pony trainer's and she wins a lot at the national level. I saw her work a half dozen horses and I thought she was awful quick and snappy with her young horses, didn't give them time to think it out when they didn't line right out and go the exact way she wanted them to, green or not. If it was me, I'd think a few ten seconds here and there might add years to the mindset of some of the horses she was working, but her barn is about full and she had some national caliber clients and some stunning prospects. I think in all disciplines the more successful someone is, the more horses they get in training, and as there are only so many seconds in a day, some get the bum's rush when it is there turn. The trainers forget what they used to do that got them where they are now, before the pressure was on to produce a winner out of every horse that gets dragged over to their barn, to make a silk purse out of. I didn't see any sorry ponies yesterday, but I know that people think the trainer makes the horse, when sometimes it's the horse that makes the trainer, and people forget that.

 

[michickenwrangler]

Makes my sport of distance riding look all the better. Many horses compete into their 20s. Mine is 19 and still going strong. Got out to ride this afternoon and she was raring.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Actually, I think, of the number of Thb that actually make it to that initial training at the track, the drop out rate is not that high, it's awful, but I don't think it's as high as you quoted. If you said of the number BORN how many actually wind up placing (first, second third) at a race, EVER, would be rather abysmal.

But I also think, that if you took the % for almost any breed/sport, it would be...rather abysmal too, it would at the very least, make breeding of ANY breed look like a 'labor of love'. Even in purpose bred breeds, I think few individuals actually wind up competing, or placing, at the intended work.

Racing, I think, is unique for the number of 'speed injuries' that occur. That I believe, is rather high; many are catastrophic injuries, but more often, are race-career ending. I think it is being chipped away at, with better track surfaces, but I just don't think you can avoid a certain % of 'speed injuries' when you're...going fast.

"a kinda twisting motion with the back and the hocks to get the slowness desired. it screws the back and legs up really quick"

THAT'S what that is!

My gosh I was riding a WP horse some years ago and I thought, 'My god, this horse is so, so, so sore, how can that be, they rarely ride, when they do they go so slow...'

And to think my dressage coach would SCREAM at me if I ever did a flying change anywhere near a corner, 'YOU ARE GOING TO RUIN THAT HORSE'S BACK...NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!'

I did it once, my little darling was going a little bit too fast, and the 'command', if you could have viewed it as one(it was more like a desperate plea to St. Christopher for a miracle), was a little bit late. LOL. I still wake at nights screaming, 'NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! NOT IN THE CORRRRNNNNERRRRR!'

'Welsy, welsy wake up, you're dreaming!'

'No! No! Don't send me back there!'

'Welsey, where, were you abused as a child????'

"yes, by a dressage trainer...."

I need to write a book.

 

[patandchickens]

I would have said that to me it seems like the main reasons for the egregiously short working lifespan of WP horses is a) they are not prepared well physically (most seem to live mainly in a stall their whole entire lives, maybe put in a 30' roundpen for a couple hrs a day, which does NOT build the necessary bone/muscle/tendons/ligaments) and especially because b) they are ridden in an attitude of considerable muscle tension which makes their joints take a beating. Yeah, they feel smooth to the rider, but it's not because their muscles are cushioning things so well, it's just because they're not hardly MOVING to begin with. Also the balance-on-forehand attitude.

Although I think there is also a lot of truth to "kinda twisting motion with the back and the hocks to get the slowness desired".

The racing unsoundness-loss rate is nowhere near 99%; also remember that a large fraction of the racehorses that do become unsound for racing are still (at least after a rest) quite sound enough for other purposes and not-infrequently continue to have a long, long working life.

Whereas horses that ain't sound enough for WP ain't sound enough for ANYthing else.

Pat

 

[michickenwrangler]

Around here, most girls that have horses have 3 horses. 1) show horse--western pleasure and English classes (which is just WP in English tack) 2) Speed horse for gymkhana and speed events and 3) Trail horse. Sounder than WP horse, saner than psycho speed horse as the others can't be trusted on the trail.

 

[onthespot]

pat you are 100% right about the stalling, no excercise, padded cell, then started super young, choked down right away the the slowest possible small circles. I tore my rotator cuff (again) a while back, and I have a coming three year old I need started, don't want to start her myself, cuz it will never heal if I do all that saddlling and brushing and arm lifting, but everyone I have gone to look at is all "up in their face" all the time from week one. I would kill for a person who could just let them ease along on a loose outside rein, barely any contact on the inside, and who cares how they travel, just go, until they gradually tone up to carry themselves they way they feel most comfortable. As they tone up and build strength, they will become more balanced and collected themselves and you don't have to "put them there" they will put themselves there. Might take a year or two, but I don't care. No one will do it. Not one trainer I have talked to is interested in doing what I want them to. And I don't trust them to do it if I am not right there on their case every time that horse is worked. I don't want any shortcut. I don't want "results" and I don't want a thirty day wonder. I want a six month wonderful. No one I know will or can do it. It is sad.

 

[welsummerchicks]

do they use the outside rein differently from the inside rein when they're bottling up those babies?

dressage: too complicated
HJ: too expensive, too many clothes
WP: too slow, too many casualties
reining: need to be too fat and have too big a hat
endurance: PERFECT! Cheaper, and it even has straight men!

 

[michickenwrangler]

endurance: PERFECT! Cheaper, and it even has straight men!

Indeed! Although a lot of people are frightened of trotting for 25+ miles. But a BLAST when we finally do it!

My dressage friend and I were gabbing today and she said that she just read an article by Hilda Gurney where Gurney said that she usually schools a horse for 20-30 minutes and then goes out on a short trail ride to avoid schooling the horse to death.

Still of the school of thought that dressage/trail riding and endurance/dressage schooling are excellent complements to each other.