So western pleasure sorta scares me.

[welsummerchicks]

What has been really interesting for me, is, even if different people define these terms/words differently, or to different degrees, there seems to be a VERY strong agreement among all, that Western Pleasure has gotten very exaggerated and something they are all not comfortable with.

It's very interesting. What do people say who do WP and like it the way it is?

What I THINK they might say, is that the smooth gaits are very pleasurable to ride, and the loose reins also are a pleasure to ride with, that it takes a great deal of skill to turn out top quality WP horse and that everyone else who's criticizing it, doesn't understand that while the horses look differently from other horses in other events, they are in fact, fulfilling to a very high level, all such terms as collection, self carriage, balance, obedience, etc.

And there's only one problem.

The horses still look like they're on drugs to me, LOL!!!!

 

[duckluck]

Quote:
I soooo agree with this, and it's why I stopped riding Western, especially at shows. Between horses that look defective and clothes that look like a constant wardrobe malfunction, the Western disciplines hold little appeal for me, and I hate being in 40 pounds of leather to sit a horse anyway. I sure have turned a lot of heads doing team penning practice in an English saddle, though!

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Having had this discussion with serious WP people, IME they really pretty much stick to the bit about "it takes a great deal of skill to turn out a top quality WP horse".

Which is true, it does. (Also in my observation takes a lot of gadgets and a cooperative vet

(although prolly there are those who do it more or less without those two things... maybe... a few people anyhow... she says, giving the benefit of doubt))

But then, the same could be said of sored big-lick TWHs, or foot-binding among the former Chinese aristocracy, or the (spoof, people, it was just a JOKE) website about bonsai kittens. A lot of skill required there. So?

Most WP horses look pretty unhappy to me, and most do not have a very long working lifespan due to soundness issues. I think it would be much more "pleasurable" if the showring would get back to what's more constructive for the horse's wellbeing. Plus you can still have a pleasurable ride for the rider, and a purty picture, with the horse going at more than a snail's pace.

JMHO, apologies in advance to all the people who prolly don't like me saying this,

Pat

 

[welsummerchicks]

Agree with pat on this.

There are also issues when the 'extreme' styles start affecting many other riders, even ones not doing that class. I think on horsey bulletin boards, one of the commonest questions today is 'how do I get down and keep down, my horse's head', LOL. Also right up there are questions about 'headset' and 'frame'. It seems quite a few classes now copy what-they-think-is-dressage, that 'frame', 'head set'.

 

[onthespot]

People who breed seriously for WP breed horses that have heads that naturally set out level, and short stride, and are kind of dead headed, and if their tails don't lay flat, the "have them done" even though it is against the rules. Not everything you see there in the world show is the result of cruelty and abuse of a spirited, long gaited horse with a naturally high head carriage.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I've noticed a definite difference in Quarter Horse conformation toward that type - and it actually seems to carry over to other types of western events, not just wp. Though I think the biggest extremes are halter and WP.

The hind legs longer than the forelegs, the rump higher than the shoulders, etc.

 

[patandchickens]

Yeah, obviously they select (hard!) for horses with conformation that leads to that kind of carriage and movement... but even so, there is a lot of stuff done to keep and accentuate it, and honestly how many 18 yr old top WP horses do you know that are still regularly showing albeit in the junior levels or whatever? As opposed to their feet and hocks and backs gave out years ago and they're arthritic pasture pets or have been put down. Seems like you see a lot more older hunters still working-sound than good WP horses.

People call it 'collection' and I am not going to be the word police, here, you can call it collection if you want, you can call it a mango souffle if you want, whatever, but it does not take weight off the front end of the horse and the front end of the horse really takes a beating in that frame, as does the hind end b/c it is sort of working in antagonism to the front end to produce the 'acute appendicitis' look that is favored.

Pat

 

[welsummerchicks]

I have that secret, filthy desire to be the word police, at least enough to make one 'oh-no-it-isn't' post, but I don't have the fire-in-the-belly required to actually carry it off or make it stick. I get bored by the time of the second 'you're sooooo wrong blah blah blah' response. There's too much internet mythology, no one person can fight it all by his little old self.

'Acute appendicitis' is one I've not heard.

A friend of mine, after years of actually competing in Western Pleasure and finally one day being told, 'your horse is moving too forward', when she was at a point where, as she described it, 'my horse was going so slow there were buzzards circling over my head and taking out their napkins', quit and started doing dressage, and says, 'At least no one ever tells me I'm too forward'(I took out all the bad language present in the original).

LOL.

Many years ago I attended a Christophe Hess clinic, and I sat there and giggled the entire time, as the entire clinic consisted of him, having everyone, from Intro to Grand Prix/Olympic trials wannabe, for two entire days, galloping around that arena as if they were saving the entire world from David Morse's character in 12 Monkeys. NOBODY was forward enough. The auditors were all sitting there looking like this:

HA AHA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I went to a clinic more recently with him and the reaction was a lot different, much more 'yeah, there ya go, that's whatcha gotta do'. Except for the people who were just sitting there smiling like Cheshire cats and thinking, 'I AM SURE GLAD THAT IS NOT ME OUT THERE!'

 

[onthespot]

pat, you are right, most are broken down by four or five. the debate goes on endlessly to let their hocks fuse naturally, or hurry it up chemically. Many are started at 18 months to be ready for the 2 yr old futurities. If they would just put the big money on the four or five year old classes, it would instantly cut about 90% of the practices that makes a horse washed up at four in many of the AQHA events. Same for racing. Wherever the money is, that is where most people rush like fools, darn the torpedoes, we're going in, gunzablazin', so to speak.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Given the number of hunters that are started at 18 months (and even the number of OTT TBs that start into training as yearlings and wash out at 2 or 3 but are sound enough to have performance careers as hunters or etc), and the proportion of them that remain working-sound into their teens and beyond, I have a hard time chalking it up JUST to the age at which western show horses are started. I think a lot of it is what they are required to do (the WAY they're required to do it, I mean)

Just curious, slightly off-topic -- Does anyone here have a sense of how reining horse longevity may have changed (or not) since it became an FEI sport? Do they start them later, or anyhow start them later into intensive training? Or do they still start em real young but just not show them under FEI rules til they are older? (4 or 5 or whatever it is) I remember wondering how that would play out when reining first was added to the FEI dance card.

Pat