So western pleasure sorta scares me.

[babyblue]

you know it seriously annoys me when people decide to judge entire groups by the extreme ends. I have shown WP and all the other QH events my whole life. not once has my horse been on the forehand, done a 4 beat lope or anther of that bs. I have always done extremely well.

Wp the gaits are to be collected, smooth and balanced. the horse should appear a pleasure to ride, not a battle for head set or position. English class's the gaits have power and umph behind them, with smooth extension in the gaits. Above all the horse should be obedient and well schooled. that always will place higher then the over exaggerated bs.

 

[michickenwrangler]

If you read my post again, it mentions county fair shows, not the people who are showing at rated shows. These are people who are "imitating" what western pleasure should be and don't know how to make a horse move differently for different disciplines. These are people not working with trainers beyond a 4-H leader (who was probably a backyard rider too).

I have firsthand experience in Arab & Saddlebred shows and have seen what has happened there.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Yes I made a generalization. But it's true! Horses have to be able to pick up their front end to bring their hind end underneath them to collect. This can't happen if the horse's head is low they need to raise their neck and head. There is a reason why dressage horses a built like they are, it's to allow them to do everything they need to do. Im not saying QHs cant do it, but im saying that Western Pleasure QHs (and when i say QH i include Aps and Paints) don't do that because their head 'has to be' low.

If you look at this video,

at 4:00 he is loping, I grant he is going a little fast but he's a greenie. But what you can see is his impulsion and "jump up" in the front end, a true canter has elevation and suspension. <--- Quarter Horses do not.

If you go to 4:00 here,

, there is no suspension and limited impulsion.

 

[GalloFino]

Quote:
Thanks for linking these videos...great examples to illustrate the discussion! Interesting to see how different Western Pleasure is between the different breed shows. I think I have a bit of a crush on those Morgans.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Celtic, it is true that the horse's forehand, neck and head, come up when they are collected.....SORT OF.

But in every riding style, 'collected' means something very, very different.

It may as well not even be the same word - the training methods for getting it, and the actual end product is so different. It isn't about where the head and neck are alone, but also each method has a very characteristic working of the back and hind quarter, and a very specific kind of stride and motion it produces.

And while in SOME riding styles you FIRST lift the head and neck, in others, STARTING by lifting the head and neck(either in the order of training or as a cue to get the horse to 'collect') would totally ruin how the back and hind quarters are supposed to work, and the type of stride that's supposed to be created.

If you read the USEF rule book for each division, it's pretty interesting. The rules tend to describe a head and neck position, and in some cases, the action of the hocks, and that's it! That's very, very misleading.

There are 4 basic ways of doing what various riding styles call 'collecting'.

1. Lift the horse's head with the bridle, by riding with a very high hand and a sharp bit, and set the rider further back on the horse's back, toward the tail - breed horses with very light, high set 'swanny' necks so they are easy to move and shape the neck.

2. Teaching the horse to take a very slow, soft stride, not enough to make the back ripple or the stride 'jump', in a 'gathered package', with his head low and his neck curled in toward his chest - called 'patting the ground'. Any lifting of the head and neck is very slight. The horse does not actually unburden the forehand to any great degree, he 'pats'. This is very, very different from how other styles of riding 'collect'.

3. Teach the horse to thrust forward with the hind legs and swing his hindquarters and back - instead of lifting the head and neck with the bridle, use the bridle only to create a 'meeting point' the horse chooses where that is based on his comfort, based on his conformation and training, and contain and direct some of the energy from the hind quarters against this meeting point. Training goes on for a long time and consists of two phases, first, developing thrusting power, then developing the carrying power of the hind quarters. Comfortable for the rider? Hardly and not meant to be, the rider knows he's succeeding when he feels like ralphing up his lunch, there is so much motion transmitted to him from the back, hind quarters and shoulders. In comparison, other riding styles feel like rolling on a smooth floor on a couch with wheels.

4. What used to be called 'hold 'em and hit 'em', used in some types of driving - check the horse's head up rather high via the harness overcheck, use a very firm rein contact, and start using your whip. Since the horse cannot reach out his stride and go forward faster, he will start to lift his legs up.

Method #1 is accompanied by the back dropping down and the hind quarters trailing out behind the body so the hocks flex, but the hind legs appear to be 'tied together' at the hocks. This is very comfortable for the rider, and that is the main purpose of this kind of riding. The action of the shoulders lifting the forelegs may transmit some motion in the saddle, but the back and hind quarters will not.

Method #2 is also comfortable, because the back does not swing and there is not a big 'oomph' from the action of the hind quarters.

Method #3 is great, but takes a lot of time and skill to learn, especially the 'balancing' of the forward and the restraining aids, which have to be used in a very delicate balance...and actually requires people to re-learn a lot of things.

Method #4 gives the 'showy' motion of the forelegs and a 'proud' position of head and neck, but also causes the muscles of the back and neck to be shortened and tightened, and the hind legs more pushed out behind the horse.

All of these methods bear a superficial resemblance to each other, but the end results are entirely different. The purpose of each riding style is different, too.

"you know it seriously annoys me when people decide to judge entire groups by the extreme ends."

The trouble is that, that one 'extreme end' is what just about everyone aims for!

As far as 'judging unfairly - those people are in 4h/bottom of bucket', I see the same thing at Quarter Horse congress and the western pleasure world championships, even at most breed shows, with slight variations that don't really change the picture all that much. There's only a few breeds' WP classes that look to me like they wouldn't be absolutely and completely dangerous as ranch horses. Some of them are a little more forward than the worst offenders, but are too highly mannered(exaggerated and artificial) and held in to be useful in a working environment.

The Morgans look better, but still, I don't know exactly when WP became all about having a 'head set', I don't care for that. I think a working horse should have his nose reaching forward and be moving at a very crisp, active gait.

In the QH WP ring, though, it just to me looks sick. The horses all look like they're on drugs. World championships and all the way down the line.

I would absolutely love to see what would happen if someone went into the WP ring with the horse's head up but comfortable and natural, nose poked forward, and did a ground covering, energetic walk, a good strong active, energetic trot, and a nice energetic ground covering canter with an actual leap in it, instead of that...I don't even know what that is.

I've watched trainers school WP - they start out with a youngster that moves normally - forward, active, head up, looking ahead...and they gradually make them...look like something very, very different.

 

[Jasmine1998]

My friend decided to tag along one night to team penning & she rode her horse in an english saddle. They did pretty good...but you should have seen he looks they got from some of the old timers there, lol.

 

[babyblue]

Quote:
Yes I made a generalization. But it's true! Horses have to be able to pick up their front end to bring their hind end underneath them to collect. This can't happen if the horse's head is low they need to raise their neck and head. There is a reason why dressage horses a built like they are, it's to allow them to do everything they need to do. Im not saying QHs cant do it, but im saying that Western Pleasure QHs (and when i say QH i include Aps and Paints) don't do that because their head 'has to be' low.

If you look at this video,

at 4:00 he is loping, I grant he is going a little fast but he's a greenie. But what you can see is his impulsion and "jump up" in the front end, a true canter has elevation and suspension. <--- Quarter Horses do not.

If you go to 4:00 here,

, there is no suspension and limited impulsion.

Im quite sure I can tell the difference between the two and can also tell you wp horses, good ones, certainly do have suspension and controlled impulsion...the whole point of collection. so yes you agree to making a generalization, then still argue the same point?

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I'd sure like to see that. Any video to link to, or still photos that show suspension? (or even, "not four-beating")?

Pat

 

[19hhbelgian]

Quote:
Honestly horses with a 4 beat canter are not working properly, and it is supposed to be a DQ in the show ring. The head set is supposed to be level, not below. They should not be working on their forehand either. A horse moving properly will be using it's hind end. I have seen plenty of arabs with a 4 beat lope too, so, noboy's perfect

 

[babyblue]

Quote:
I'd sure like to see that. Any video to link to, or still photos that show suspension? (or even, "not four-beating")?

Pat

can you give me a bit to 1 dig out photos of my horse and 2 ask for permision from a few friends to use theirs.