socialism

[VT Chick-lit]

PunkërTeçhñöRøø§ter said: Im sorry but I didnt read the entire thread. But as anyone spoken about socialist medicine ?
If your to old or you have a low probability of a successful operation you dont get it paid for by the state. So if you cant afford to pay for your own procedure, they send you home to die.

This was once again proven true a few weeks ago, when the group that oversees the British Universal Healthcare Program provided to, and paid for by the British citizens, detirmined that only certain drugs would be offered to women with later stage breast cancer. This is even though there are other durgs that may be more effective in some women and the women would be willing to pay for the drug from their own money. They have been told that if they opt for those drugs they will be responsible for ALL the costs of their breast cancer, not just the cost of the denied meds! The reason is the cost of expensive drugs and the British governments belief that because of such costs they will not be cost effective. This is why our government getting into the business of health care is frightening. They have already stated that they want access at your bedside to aprove the most "cost effective"care.

Here is the link to the New York Times article on this problem:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html​

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Our government? Cost effective? Really? That's what they're going for?
Huh. I guess that phrase doesn't mean what I think it means. Hmmm...

 

[Wifezilla]

Soon our healthcare will be as wonderful as the post office (how much did they lose last year?) and the DMV put together!

 

[Xtina]

Quote:
Cheat and stealing are not capitalism. Capitalism is the free exchange of goods between informed individuals.

Fraud, theft, etc... are ABUSES of capitalism.

That was my point exactly. These are not the intention of capitalism, and the negatives that you find in socialism are not the intention there either. Bad things happen in all economic and social systems, and to act like one is so much better than the other doesn't seem logical to me. In junior high I was taught that capitalism was so good that it was actually Godly; as in, Jesus Christ himself might have sanctioned it. Well, it turns out that it's just another system, made by people, and is overall no better than anything else. What is better than other systems is democracy, and that wasn't invented in America, nor does America have some kind of ownership of the principle.

As an aside, no one said America never helped a socialist nation. Sure we did. That has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of socialism or capitalism. We are a giant nation with a lot of heft due in large part to our vast natural resources.

Finally, yes, America has historically been awesome at scientific development, but we sure don't have the market cornered there either. Private investment for profit is not the only way to encourage pure research.

Thanks for all the kudos I got and I can't believe this thread has been so civil for so long. Great input, everyone!

 

[Sean-PC]

Just thought this thread could use a little humor.

FEUDALISM: You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

PURE SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all of the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and put them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you need.

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them and sells you the milk.

PURE COMMUNISM: You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

RUSSIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government takes both of them and shoots you.

DICTATORSHIP: You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

PURE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

PURE ANARCHY: You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.

LIBERTARIAN/ANARCHO-CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

(Original source unknown . . . this version expanded and Illuminated by SJ.)

 

[Jena]

Can I just say you are all amazing people, and I am really proud to be a member of your community. I loved the humour of the last post, it was excellent.

I understand just how confusing the current situation is and I share a lot of your concerns from a slightly different perspective.

I live in the UK.

I know political discussions here have been closed and I was avoiding joining this one, I did not want to provoke any other points, and then I got here and realised I didn't need to. Each time I have chipped in to one of these threads it has only been to answer somethings that seem confusing, and just to tell you all how it really is here. I am not being political or provoking in any way, just trying to share some views with you all.

In my own country, these days I do not know what to do and where to go.

The values that have been dear to British people are being erroded at an alarming rate, but they are still here somewhere..... do we walk away, find somewhere else to live? and ... if we do where is that place?

I love my little country, and being in Wales I am very proud of the technological advances that led to an industrial revolution that should have been a force for good in the world. I am a historian, and I specialised in the social impact of industrialisation on Wales when in university as a mature student.

I live about 10 miles from where Anneirun Bevan first dreampt up the Welfare State, I have worked in his office, I have researched what he was seeing on a daily basis.

I am old enough myself to have known people who were so pleased to have a pension for the first time in the 50s, instead of being committed to poverty in old age, after spending all their lives working in the coal mines from the age of 14.

I have seen the records of villages wiped out by cholera, Typhoid and common ailments that would respond to medications these days that meant certain death in the early 20th Century. babies dying on a daily basis.

We had politics here too. I live 2 miles from a graveyard where 22 men were buried in the night, because they had marched on the ruling Whig Capitalist government to demand rights for the working man. The Chartists, and their demise was the last time that British troops turned their guns on their own people.

I am always hearing reference to the UK as being a socialist country, but it is not Socialist. We are a Capitalist country who has chosen to adopt supposedly Universal Healthcare, because of the horror of people dying needlessly.

We have also chosen to have a safety net of beneifts, for people who have no sustainable income.

OK..... now the truth of these systems is changing.

Universal Healthcare is changing. in the past 30 years there has been a sea change in this country. I know because I have been here.

I was born in a hospital donated to the people of our town by a family that lost their mother in childbirth, and without that hospital I would not be here. My mother had a C-section under local anaesthetic due to pneumonia. This was 4 years after the start of the National Health Service.

All the political parties in this country have failed to maintain the ideal of universal healthcare and now yes they are trying to balance the books and it is not possible. They talk about refusing care to people who smoke, who are overweight, and yes we have also had the problem of anyone who is willing to pay for extra drugs for cancer survival then being refused all other care unless they pay. This has now been overturned and they will get full care and be able to buy extra drugs to ensure their life is extended.

The people affected have spent their lives paying through their wages for the healthcare system here and then when they need it most they were being refused. This is a regional problem.

WE have committees that govern healthcare in each region set up by government, they are powerful and I have worked as an advocate for people who have been refused services for the past 8 years now.

My issue is that in all systems you have those who are in control, lol.... in our banks, the government has bailed them out but it has not been able to take huge pension deals away from the corrupt guys that got us into this mess.

It is Power that causes the problems.... and money.

It is not an arguement about socialism, believe me..... and because there are some people in the world who will do anything to gain an advantage the benefit system is also broken.

We have whole communities who are trapped in a benefit culture, and they can not get out.

But the real problem is Education. Education in this country has been undermined systematically for more than 30 years. WHY?

Because if you educate the masses they will question what you do.

Unless you have money in this country, you have no voice. Absolutely no voice.

In my area I have been working for 3 years now on a legal situation and what I have proved is that if you want justice in this area, you have no chance, because some people are controlling access to justice and it is very expensive to get past them.

It is not perfect, but so far we have kept working on it. But I am also seeing signs of other things, and a society sleepwalking into fascism .

Socialism and Communism do not work, because human nature is contrary to these ideas.

if we are intelligent or crafty enough to see an advantage, we will take it. This leads to absue of the benefit system, and the healthcare system.

those in control have different driving motives and are not able to come up with a system that is fair, and secure from abuse.

Recently we have had high profile cases of abuse.... one was a councillor whoahs been claiming disability benefit, and was caught refereeing a football match, another guy living on benefits was filmedrunning a marathon. One woman was found through the interenet, on a yacht in the Mediterranean with her boyfriend, they were financing a life style of the rich while claiming benefits.

But the majority of people are just decent people working to survive. But we are facing identity cards, and having our private communications snooped on in the name of the fight against terrorism. Fascism coming to a town near me soon, closed curcuit TV that is being used to snoop on people via the terrorism legislation.

We do not have the control on innovation either, our power is gone. India is the largest democracy in the world. This week we have been told about a magic bullet pill developed in India that could save millions from early death from heart and blood pressure problems.

No western company will produce the pill because it will not turn a profit, it is too cheap to make. But they will not allow an Indian company to produce it either.


This where all the problems lie, it is not people who are the enemy, it is power and money.

Where is humanity in all this?

I think the UK is finished and we will become a 3rd world country in time. Our Industry is smashed, politicians wanted us to become a service provider, and we can not do it as cheaply as others, and we have lost all our kudos.

I can do nothing, I have no power I can use my vote but will lose out to the millions who are favouring a different party. based on financial gain not moral strength, which has always been British strength.

America is going to win and survive. You have a new chance to make strong bonds with others that will enable you to make a new way forward. Your countrywill change but you will stil be important because of your natural resources and you engagement with others. But the Uk is too small. Without our banking dominance we are through.

You have a chance to find a new way ahead. You will never be enslaved or entrapped. It is not about politics it is about Humanity.

 

[Jena]

Quote:
This was once again proven true a few weeks ago, when the group that oversees the British Universal Healthcare Program provided to, and paid for by the British citizens, detirmined that only certain drugs would be offered to women with later stage breast cancer. This is even though there are other durgs that may be more effective in some women and the women would be willing to pay for the drug from their own money. They have been told that if they opt for those drugs they will be responsible for ALL the costs of their breast cancer, not just the cost of the denied meds! The reason is the cost of expensive drugs and the British governments belief that because of such costs they will not be cost effective. This is why our government getting into the business of health care is frightening. They have already stated that they want access at your bedside to aprove the most "cost effective"care.

Here is the link to the New York Times article on this problem:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html

This has been overturned now here, and patients who are able to pay for the extra drugs thatwill prolong their life will not have topay for their standard NHS care. We do win sometimes. there are still some glitches due to regional attitudes but it will be sorted.

 

[Stumpy]

Quote:
I have been saddened to see what's been happening in England over the past few years, as well as here. I wish I could believe we would never be enslaved or trapped, but I think we'll be following in England's footsteps before long, so to speak, especially with the number of federal judges we have making unconstitutional decisions and actually citing foreign law. For many other reasons I won't go into, I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for this republic.

 

[Jena]

Quote:
I have been saddened to see what's been happening in England over the past few years, as well as here. I wish I could believe we would never be enslaved or trapped, but I think we'll be following in England's footsteps before long, so to speak, especially with the number of federal judges we have making unconstitutional decisions and actually citing foreign law. For many other reasons I won't go into, I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for this republic.

Stumpy, I think there are going to be a lot of changes but I am hopeful for your country really. I am impressed.

I have been watching the G20, NATO and the tour of europe and everything very intently, and honestly the image of America is very positive here, in fact I think we are hanging on your shirt tails here.... lol.

My only thought is that there is so much to do, like you say about judges, I don't know if there is time to work on the whole system, they are so complex with the layers and levels of power.

But on the world stage America is the goods now really. I have heard British people cheering here. We are ignoring our own idiots.

Best wishes to you all anyway... I have decided to drop out, maybe I should have done in the 70s....lol.

I am just doing what I can to lessen my footprint and to be sustainable.

 

[joebryant]

I am always disturbed when I read about "socialism"/"redistribution of wealth" coming from a certain group claiming that the money is being distributed to the poorer class of people. In reality, the money is being distributed upward, not downward, i.e., it's being taken from the poor and middle class and being given to the already super-rich. This bunk has been going on since Reagan's "trickle down" economics. It has NOT trickled down; it has flowed up.