Solid neck vs pearled neck pattern?

[lcw1995]

interesting thread
learnnin alot lol

 

[ozguineafowl]

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Hi rollyard as a long time breeder of guinea fowl in Australia I believe you are incorrect but I would love to read the genteic mapping you have done on the red eye silver, so can you please post.

1- The full history of the mutation please?
2- Can you please let us all know who did the genetic mapping and when?
3- Was it a geneticist in Australia or OS like the netherlands?
4- Even better if you can post the genetic certificate of mapping issued by a geneticist that would be super good

P.s Just curious how long have you had red eye guinea fowl?

Very nice to meet you all

Hi ozguineafowl, I believe we have interacted before elsewhere on this very subject & experienced disagreement there also. I am quite happy for you to have your own views on Silver Guinea Fowl, as I & others have our own. Based on your vast experience in breeding guinea fowl, much much longer than my own by your description, maybe you could help shed some light on some of the questions you have raised & thereby enlighten us all.

Could you describe, based on your vast experience in breeding Guineas here in Oz, what your views are in relation to Silver, ie, what constitutes Silver genetically, & why/where you believe I am incorrect? I am sure you can help those of us with limited experience with these birds to see more clearly!

Thanks in advance

Hi Rollyard nice to meet you for the first time. I will be happy to share with everyone as I like to help all guinea fowl lovers but first can you please respond to my questions as I think we all would like clarification on your 'statement' quote=rollyard (silver product of two mutations, lavender & cinnamon). end quote. As it’s a statement we all need you to explain in detail please with the 4 questions below

1- The full history of the mutation please?
2- Can you please let us all know who did the genetic mapping and when?
3- Was it a geneticist in Australia or OS like the Netherlands?
4- Even better if you can post the genetic certificate of mapping issued by a geneticist that would be super good

P.s Just curious how long have you had red eye guinea fowl?

Thanks in advance for your answers to all

 

[PeepsCA]

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Do you have both neck patterns in your flock duckie? I was hoping to see some new pics!

 

[rollyard]

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Yes, my head hurts also, & like you am no geneticist, but do enjoy working out the colours & feel have come some way in short time with guineas, thanks largely to helpful individuals such as yourself

Those two Cinnamon hens look very similar except for one having neck pearling & the other no neck pearling? Will list combinations identified, feel free to add to list anyone anything missed:-

1/ Non-pied birds, striped keet pattern, solid neck pattern
2/ Non-pied birds, ? keet pattern, pearled neck pattern (probably striped keet pattern as non-pied pearled neck pattern seen in @ least some ? wild birds)
3/ Pied birds, TB keet pattern, solid neck pattern
4/ Pied birds, TB keet pattern, pearled neck pattern
5/ Pied birds, striped keet pattern, pearled neck pattern

What about pied birds, striped keet pattern, solid neck pattern? No consistent trend (except maybe pied/TB pattern) I can see so far, so maybe different factors influence each trait? Wonder whether being pure or impure for any of these factors plays a role? Will hopefully be able to understand more from keets here as they mature.

Provisional findings:-
1/ Neck pattern not linked to pied & keet down pattern. Pearled neck pattern dominant over solid neck pattern; autosomal transmission?
2/ Pied pattern strongly associated with TB keet down pattern, but not in every instance (some striped keets mature into ? light pied). Amount of white varies considerably.
3/ Striped keet pattern associated with light pied pattern only?

Your Cinnamons do look very similar don't they except for dark eyes & dark skin on neck from what I can see?

 

[ozguineafowl]

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Not linked to any keet regardless of adult feather pattern.

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No, the neck feathers are relevant to the feather pattern and not a mutation so no dominance

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No idea what a TB is but the down in just down not a pattern and plays no part in adult plumage in pearls

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No, stripped keets are pearl grey, and pearl pied no such thing as light pied

As rollyard has not verified his statement on silver quote=(silver product of two mutations, lavender & cinnamon) end quote. Silver is not a product of lavender & cinnamon he needs to edit his mistake.

Edit- quote=(silver product of two mutations, lavender & cinnamon) end quote. Further question, can you please explain the genetic history of the first appearance of the red eye cinnamon unique to Australia. If your idea that silver was bred out of lavender & cinnamon then what bred the cinnamon on the first place?

 

[PeepsCA]

I'm sure you will have much better luck at getting to the bottom of how the neck pearling/pied/TB stuff all relates (or doesn't relate?) and what's dominant or recessive etc, since you are set up for controlled breeding, PLUS have an exceptional grasp/understanding of genetics and how all of that works (which I'm definitely lacking).Add in all the different variables and uncontrolled breeding here with my flocks... I'll end up having no hair left if I continue to try to figure it out thru another free for all hatching season, lol. I think I've contributed about as much info as I can, which isn't much, lol.

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Some breeders consider the color I call Cinnamon in my flocks to be Brown in their flocks, and some consider what the color I call Brown in my flocks to be Cinnamon in their flocks, lol. To top it off, I have a few different shades of birds (not just 2) that can be either/or, depending on the breeder you ask. Add in the differences in our colors over here in the US compared to your colors down in Oz and it gets even more confusing...

Just as examples, I consider this guy a Brown... but, he kinda looks Cinnamon at the same time, lol...

These are also Browns to me (Hens)...

Btw... all these birds were normal striped keets, lol.

 

[rollyard]

Well, you & other members have helped a great deal in my view, & am grateful for any assistance really. I will add to this a little later when keets older but unless anyone else has anything constructive to offer, have probably exhausted topic for time being. It will be interesting to see if the striped head Lavender keets from two solid neck patterned parents all have solid neck patterns, & those from pearl neck parents all have pearl necks, some of which are currently TBs, others striped patterned down. I will be sure to keep you informed, the least I can do

I remember you saying in the past how some call your Cinns brown & vice-versa, with various shades in between; one point which makes our limited colours here less confusing, & likely far easier to learn about

The birds you call brown look a bit darker than our Cinnamons here, especially over the back? Makes the pearling crisper (I think) for me. They are real beauties, & thank you for the photos.

PS, your browns all normal striped down pattern, & all look to have solid neck pattern from what I can see (sorry, can't help myself

)

 

[ozguineafowl]

Your welcome Rollyard happy to help the very newbie’s like you and get you on the right path and information. Shame you cannot answer my questions

oh well maybe with experience and time you will

 

[PeepsCA]

ozguineafowl...

Just to clear a couple things up for you, since you are new here and unfamiliar with a few terms some of us "newbies" use to help clarify what we are talking about...

TB (Teddy Bear) is a term that has been coined by a few breeders over here in the US for describing the pattern/markings/blended color of the down that some keets hatch with (they tend to look like little teddy bears). It's not an official term, but is fairly widely used. I believe breeders in Oz use the term Penguin... same thing. Just a term, not official.

Light Pied (or Slightly Pied which is the term I choose to use) is a term used to describe to a Pied Guinea with only a small amount of Pied (white) on it... so if there's no such thing as a Light Pied, then what do you call a Guinea with that amount of Pied on it down in Oz?

We also use the terms Heavy Pied over here and Hospital Gown for Guineas that are really Pied and so Pied that they have only a strip of color down the center of their backs. And again, these are not official terms, but they do help paint a clear picture in one's mind and also help avoid confusion for some of us as we read all the different discussions.

So maybe the official term of "Light Pied" does not exist, but unofficially it's useful and descriptive, as well as helpful term to use when posting.

Hope that helps, and if you have official terms for these descriptions, please post them.

 

[PeepsCA]

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Yes I agree, exhausted, and so is my brain from taking this all in, lol. There's not many (if any) other significant variables we haven't mentioned. I've enjoyed this thread tho, and learned a lot plus you gave me a lot of food for thought, even tho the atmosphere did suddenly take an odd change...

Since you are way ahead of the game with your hatching season already being in progress, I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with from your hatches and how your keets feather out. Keep me (us) posted! Now I'm left to impatiently awaiting all my girls to start leaving me eggs in the coops! Thanks for all the pics you posted too, I love seeing everyone's birds, especially those in different countries.

Have a good one rollyard, as always I look forward to reading your future posts

PS!!! Lol... yah, they ALL have the solid neck pattern

And the male and the young2011 Hen were hatched out of eggs from my light colored and Pied flock