Some questions on less common feed ingrediets.

[Insect]

Hello, I am starting with laying chicks. Only a few to start. I make my own feed for numerous other animals, but very much new/ignorant with any sort of bird. My goal is to make an adult feed for laying hens. I feed commercial stuff from the store now. When they go outside they will be free range, but on concrete.

As an aside, we are commercial spice farmers and have a small factory. I have commercial dryers, hammer mills etc. My goal is to make up say half year supply of dry food I grow. Not fermented.

I'm reading up, but looking to see if anyone has experience with any of these. I am particularly wondering about the anti nutritive aspects and how impactful they may be.

Here is the list I have now, mostly getting nutrition data from foodipedia website so far.


Leucana leaf meal (wondering about the antinutrivitve issues on this one as I would like to use this as a main protein source)
Pigon pea (will dry at high heat)
Corn
Sorghum
Quinoa
Millet
Sun flower
Amaranth
Roselle seed
Sweet potato foliage


Duckweed
Water hyacinth
Azolla

I can dry and blend all plant material easily. Though I don't have a pelleting machine.

I also raise these for other animals (we also have a pond with some fish for food). Can scale up easily for chicks Won't be drying these, feed fresh/live

Black soldier fly
Yellow mealworm
Dubia cockroach (I think the chitin:"meat" ration may be too low for chickens?)

Would love to hear thoughts, opinions, experiences or just brainstorm

For practical reasons on our farm setup, I'm trying to avoid low growing beans and the like. Basically, soy free.

 

[BlindLemonChicken]

I will tag someone who has experience with homemade feed @Perris and also give you a link to some articles they wrote on it. If you haven’t read these yet they’re well worth it:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/wholesome-homemade-feed-2.79307/

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll tag another nutritional expert.

@U_Stormcrow

When they go outside they will be free range, but on concrete.

Does this mean they will have no access to growing things like grasses or other plants? Mine forage for a fair amount of their food but that means I've lost the ability to micromanage every bite.

I'm not sure what part of some of these ingredients you are using. Are you talking about the grain or the plant? Your goal in this is to get a certain balance of nutrients like protein, fiber, fats, amino acids, minerals and vitamins. To me it doesn't matter if you are using grains or plants as long as the final proportions are OK.

You might look at a few different bags of chicken feed. They should have an "analysis" label that shows the percent of nutrients provided. That might make a decent guide for you.

You do not have a pelleting machine. I don't see that as a problem. You will dehydrate everything. Do you plan on grinding it up and mixing it? If you don't grind it up chickens may be able to pick out certain foods and leave less favored ones behind, messing up your nutrient ratios. And since different ingredients have different specific gravities they may segregate so again not everybody is getting a balanced diet. The way commercial operations get around this is to serve it damp so it makes a paste. Only wet enough so they can clean it up so it doesn't go sour.

For laying hens, one critical mineral is Calcium for the egg shells. I don't see a good calcium source. Laying hens need about 4% calcium for the eggshells. Non-laying chickens need about 1% calcium for growth and body maintenance. Most chickens are very good about knowing how much they need. I provide oyster shell on the side so they can self-regulate. Crushed limestone in pieces no larger than a green pea also work.

Good luck!

 

[Perris]

Would love to hear thoughts, opinions, experiences or just brainstorm

You are evidently working in a habitat and with plants quite different from those with which I am familiar, so I could not do better than refer you to feedipedia, which you already know.

If part of SE Asia is akin to your environment, this video might have some useful ideas for you. 'Process of raising native chickens from 1 day old to adulthood: food preparation, disease prevention' by Tiep Nhan Farm

 

[Insect]

@BlindLemonChicken thanks for those links! I have read the first and will get through the second tonight Lots of good points so far!

I'll tag another nutritional expert.

@U_Stormcrow


Does this mean they will have no access to growing things like grasses or other plants? Mine forage for a fair amount of their food but that means I've lost the ability to micromanage every bite.

I'm not sure what part of some of these ingredients you are using. Are you talking about the grain or the plant? Your goal in this is to get a certain balance of nutrients like protein, fiber, fats, amino acids, minerals and vitamins. To me it doesn't matter if you are using grains or plants as long as the final proportions are OK.

You might look at a few different bags of chicken feed. They should have an "analysis" label that shows the percent of nutrients provided. That might make a decent guide for you.

You do not have a pelleting machine. I don't see that as a problem. You will dehydrate everything. Do you plan on grinding it up and mixing it? If you don't grind it up chickens may be able to pick out certain foods and leave less favored ones behind, messing up your nutrient ratios. And since different ingredients have different specific gravities they may segregate so again not everybody is getting a balanced diet. The way commercial operations get around this is to serve it damp so it makes a paste. Only wet enough so they can clean it up so it doesn't go sour.

For laying hens, one critical mineral is Calcium for the egg shells. I don't see a good calcium source. Laying hens need about 4% calcium for the eggshells. Non-laying chickens need about 1% calcium for growth and body maintenance. Most chickens are very good about knowing how much they need. I provide oyster shell on the side so they can self-regulate. Crushed limestone in pieces no larger than a green pea also work.

Good luck!

Thanks for your insights, appreciated.

Unfortunately no plants direct from the soil. Other than things that grow through the fence. I could grow some beans and other vines on the fence easily though. I will be throwing in fresh plants and they will be kept on straw placed on the concrete (unless better alternatives are pIrefered). I have a wood chipper). I was hoping that hanging or throwing in fresh material that I grow would be sufficient (bowl of azolla, sunflower head, cut amaranth/millet in seed etc) on top of their staple dry food.

Apologies, I should be more clear. Any of these could be fed the aerial parts as well but these were my initial list for making the staple dry diet

Leucana leaf (hope to make my base due to availability)
Pigon pea seed
Corn seed
Sorghum seed I've read chickens perhaps don't like this one much)
Quinoa seed
Millet seed
Sun flower whole seed with shell (I don't have a machine to shell them)
Amaranth seed
Roselle seed
Sweet potato foliage
Duckweed whole plant
Water hyacinth foliage
Azolla whole plant

I do indeed intend on drying it all, grinding it and mixing it then storing it. Most of the year I can provide all the above plus mealworms and soldier fly fresh. A couple plants like Roselle are seasonal. I am hoping the insects can take care of a lot of the data as I would like to avoid other vertebrate type meats.

I was also planning on using oyster shell. Or cuttle bone as a calcium source. That will be store bought and added some to the feed and have a dish for them to peck along with


@Perris Thanks for the video, will watch tonight. I am in far south Taiwan, so SE Asia. Our winter's get a touch cooler but otherwise my climate is like the northern Philippines or Thailand. Our spot is definitely tropical.

Thanks for all the info

I wonder if any warmer climate folks have used Leucana before? Especially without a ferment.

 

[Ridgerunner]

One concern is amino acids like lysine and methionine. These are so critical the Organic rules here in the USA allow non-organic sources in chicken feed. I'll provide a link that may help.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lys...1UEAD_enUS1002US1002&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Insect]

One concern is amino acids like lysine and methionine. These are so critical the Organic rules here in the USA allow non-organic sources in chicken feed. I'll provide a link that may help.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lys...1UEAD_enUS1002US1002&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

These are the things I am trying to understand currently. I am making a spreadsheet of foods to attempt to make a calculator (Excell). However, it is clearly most important to get a clear idea of which and in what quantity the various nutrients need to be supplied. so far, from reading various journals, there is a huge gap in terms of what quantity per day per gram of chicken needs. I can assume this also has massive environmental variables as well. a chicken in Canada outdoors will surely have different needs than tropical/subtropical Asian countries like Taiwan.

I'm new to chickens, so this might be dumb.

I have found a few resources online that have simple guidelines on requirements. But they are indeed very basic.

I wonder if we can put forth a pretty solid base of say amino acids min/Max. Because the more I read, the more everything contradicts haha.

End of the day, some things are probably fine to "just be safe" and go over "just in case". But some things are dangerous to go over the top. Or might inhibit digestibility/metabolism etc. This is where I seem to keep being confused

 

[Perris]

You might find this useful. It is for cattle but it illustrates nicely what 'balanced rations' really means.
https://pubs.nmsu.edu/_b/B125/index.html

If you aim to produce eggs, or chicken meat, for the least possible cost, that is the way to go. If you have other aims, there are better ways to feed chickens.

 

[MROO]

Water hyacinth? My mom has a koi pond - meticulously maintained and filtered - and has to clear out copious amounts of water hyacinth. She knows better than to just trash it, for fear of releasing it into the waterways, so she generally dries and burns it. My question is, can I feed it to my chickens in a way that's safe for both them and my stream?