Need Some Help With Fermented Feed Issues

[Geena]

said it was fine to use crumble/lay pellets.

It is fine to use crumble/pellets. I often ferment feed for my broilers because they seem to do well on fermented feed and that's what I use and what a lot of other people use as well.

have you found a higher protein content to not cause these issues?

That's a question best asked in the duck forum.

Are you feeding them once a day? I usually put the fermented feed out twice day to make sure they get their fill before going to roost.
I think if you just cut out the corn/ scratch and feed fermented starter, grower, or all flock everything will be fine. It may cost a little more, but then you don't have to worry about whether they are getting what they need, they'll grow faster and be healthier. Best of luck!

 

[ChickNanny13]

2X @Geena

 

[Penpal]

Cracked corn has the germ removed. This is where the protein is. It is pointless to feed cracked corn whether or not it is fermented. Feed only whole corn.

Fermenting destroys the anti-nutrients in the grain. This is why you can feed less, because they are getting MORE nutrition from every seed. Because the grain soaks up water so well, they get more of the water they need and will drink less from the water bowl.

Your feed should consist of whole wheat (especially einkorn), whole oats, whole corn (especially Hopi blue corn, older varieties are best) soaked 72 hours (and longer, you can set up for 3 days or 4 days of feeding)

Amaranth (pig weed), chia, 48 hours

Quinoa, sunflower seeds in shell, 24 hours.

I use 2 parts wheat, 2 parts oats, 1 part whole corn to soak for 3 days, plus. The quinoa I soak separately and add when I put into the dish.

 

[MrsNorthie]

Alright, I am just a couple weeks into fermenting my feed and getting everyone on a schedule. But I'd like to talk to someone who has experience with it, as I feel I'm doing something wrong. I'm guessing it's my ratio of what I mix in, but I'm not 100% sure. I have laying hens, a turkey, pullets(10wks), and young ducks(10wks). The adults are all doing find on the fermented feed, including the turkey, but the pullets and young ducks are losing weight. Here is what I am doing:

So, typically with dry feed all of my flock was getting 26 dry cups daily. So I started fermenting my feed and doing 13 cups dry in a 5 gallon bucket( I have a rotation of 3 buckets going). It is a mixture from a big barrel containing 2 parts cracked corn, 1 part Scratch Grains, 2 parts Chicken feed. It was starter, now we've moved onto lay just a few days ago, because they were out of grower and said lay would be fine. I'm still not sure about that, but that isn't my issue for the moment. With each 5 gallon bucket 11 cups are from the mixed barrel, and then 2 cups of wild bird seed is also mixed in. Then we fill the bucket with water covering the feed by about 2 or 3 inches. In our heat here in Phoenix the fermentation process is happening very quickly. We feed on day 3 but I think it's ready on day 2. It gets covered in a white yeast the next morning and stops bubbling during day 2.

We feed on day 3 and everyone gets their measured amount. We were doing 1/4 cup per chick/pullet, 1/2 cup per hen, and 2 cups for the turkey, but because the pullets are really starting to grow now we are bumping them up to 1/2 cup today. I'm wondering if I should have switched them to a 1/2 cup sooner and that's what is causing the issue, or do I have to many fillers in my barrel mix? Trying to keep things as cheap as possible so I was hoping this would work. Again, my adults are good, but the pullets and ducklings are underweight when they were not before we started fermenting. But they are growing birds, so in my head they many not be doing well with these portions. I'd like some serious input.

We used to free feed in the past, but cannot afford to do that anymore unfortunately. The cost of everything here is outrageous now. So I'm trying to make this work in the best way that I can. Another concern is that I always hear about fermenting, and how it doubles the feed. The feed does not expand in the bucket by hardly anything. Its a soup when we feed each day. Not a stew, a full blown soup. Is it because I'm using the scratch and cracked corn? How do I make this work and not have to sell one of my children to do so?! I am also supplementing Duckweed a couple times a week, but I think I need to do that more often. That's everything I can think of, but my brain is a bit frazzled at the moment, so please feel free to ask for whatever info you need. I would really love to get some expert input. I want to do the best I can for everyone and I feel that right now it's not going as good as it should and I'd like to fix that. So any help is truly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

It is all a learning process. We tried to research everything before we got our first chickens, but there is always more to learn, but don't get too stressed.

I feed, more of a mash (thick as opposed to runny.), but I also have a whole grain layer and scratch feed and pellets available, so that they have a choice and plenty of food available. I was worried about this as I was told that buffs tend towards being chubby funsters, but they seem to only eat what they need and very active.

From what I have read, the fermenting whole grains, has benefits, such as help with digestion and cuts down on waste as dry food tends to half end up on the ground, but the increase in volume doesn't increase the calories, so they will lose weight because they are not getting the necessary calories per day, if you reduce the amount of actual feed going in. Phoenix heat is brutal, btw, I don't miss it. When I lived in Phoenix, as soon as it hit 85+ my appetite died, so they maybe using a lot of extra energy trying to stay cool and not eating as much because it is hot. @azygous may have more constructive input on chickens in hotter climate.

We are in South Carolina, so a little cooler than Phoenix (but still hot..), but we have areas of deep shade, and a variety of waters that we refill at least twice a day to keep the water fresh, since it has started heating up. I am lucky to work from home so we are with our chickens 24-7. I have 12 that are 4 months old, they have a constant supply of layer pellets, whole grains and get mash twice a day, along with a few treats in the evening when I go out to the run to sit with them. We did not know anything about fermenting and mash when we started with this first group and had to deal with pasty butt a couple of times. 15 that are 4 weeks old, that I feed a grower mash to, and I refill their dishes 4 -5 times per day, as well as keep 2 regular feeders full of dry grower. 11 more that are a week old and I fill their grower mash up 3-4 times per day as well as a regular feeder with dry grower. The 2nd and 3rd group have not had pasty butt, or any other issues and I think that is down to the mash as that is the only change.

 

[azygous]

I've been feeding fermented feed for going on twelve years give or take. Recently I decided to do a test to see if my chickens prefer dry feed to fermented because they always go crazy when I pour out a little dry feed. So, for three days they only got dry feed. The novelty wore off after the first day. When I fed them fermented on the fourth day after eating dry feed for three days, they were excited to have their FF back. Chicken do have taste preferences, so I easily concluded they do prefer FF.

Feeding FF during hot weather is a very good way to assure your chickens are getting important fluids. I don't bother adding anything other than dried home grown oregano to my FF as the chickens pick all the grains out first and will often leave the feed. I also learned it works much better to feed a very dry FF, as un-soupy as I can get it. Chickens far prefer FF on the dryer side. Soupy FF is very hard on the one with face fluff, and they end up losing their beards as the other attempt to clean their faces after feeding.

And when mixing FF for new baby chicks, consider that babies will get into the food bowl to eat, and when soupy FF gets all over chick down, the result can be pretty nearly tragic.

 

[MrsNorthie]

I've been feeding fermented feed for going on twelve years give or take. Recently I decided to do a test to see if my chickens prefer dry feed to fermented because they always go crazy when I pour out a little dry feed. So, for three days they only got dry feed. The novelty wore off after the first day. When I fed them fermented on the fourth day after eating dry feed for three days, they were excited to have their FF back. Chicken do have taste preferences, so I easily concluded they do prefer FF.

Feeding FF during hot weather is a very good way to assure your chickens are getting important fluids. I don't bother adding anything other than dried home grown oregano to my FF as the chickens pick all the grains out first and will often leave the feed. I also learned it works much better to feed a very dry FF, as un-soupy as I can get it. Chickens far prefer FF on the dryer side. Soupy FF is very hard on the one with face fluff, and they end up losing their beards as the other attempt to clean their faces after feeding.

And when mixing FF for new baby chicks, consider that babies will get into the food bowl to eat, and when soupy FF gets all over chick down, the result can be pretty nearly tragic.

Thank you! The chicks, standing in the fermented mash... scratching, kicking damp food all over my office.. *sigh LOL I do prefer giving them the thicker FF. I have my oregano taking off well, so I will start drying and adding that too.

Do you find a change in their eating habits during summer? @inckuhlan is in Phoenix.

 

[azygous]

I find that appetites are huge in spring, then drop off as the summer progresses. They eat even less during molt. During molt, they get animal protein (fish) once a week on of of FF.

As far as quantity, my layers eat about one cup of FF per day, and roosters half that. One way to tell if your chickens are getting enough to eat is egg laying. As long as they lay eggs, they are getting adequate food.

 

[DvorahChanah]

fermenting is beneficial when applied to whole grains; it's of little if any value applied to commercial starter/grower/layer mash/pellets: see the study linked by Jenjens here https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-me-research-study-on-fermented-feed.1428955/

I ferment and have been for years, and as it happens posted an article on home made feed for the whole flock (from chicks to 6 year olds) this morning, which you may find useful
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/
It has a lot of relevant references too, if you want to dig deeper.

Have you ever read "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon Morell & Mary Enig PhD? Another excellent source on the value of fermenting grains, even ground up grains, is "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A. Price DDS. There's the label which tells us the nutritional profile of the feed (or our food) and then there's bioavailability. Fermentation removes the anti-nutrients present in all seeds, and increases the bioavailability of nutrients in grains/seeds, as well as improving the gut microbiome.

I'm no expert with quails, having just purchased my little covey, but I am well-versed on all types of fermentation for the last 25 years. I've been feeding my quail whole seeds and grains dry, just to see how much they eat. Now that I have a handle on that, I'm beginning to ferment. I have been sprouting and growing microgreens (in a low planter in their aviary) for them from the beginning. I'm interested in these fermentation/sprouting/microgreen ventures with livestock. It's certainly not the lowest maintenance method, but I can't help thinking not only will the birds be more healthy...their eggs (and meat) will have a better nutritional profile as well.

I'm going to speculate that when birds are foraging in the wild, they choose seeds which have sprouted a bit, either from dew, or rain. I do agree though, that the bioavailability differential is higher in whole seeds and grains vs ground. The problem I see with commercially ground feed is the nutritional profile must deteriorate as oxidation sets in. It does with whole ground flours people use.

Re soupiness, perhaps slightly dehydrating the fermented seeds/grains/feed would help? It's another step, yes. I'd be careful about not covering the feed completely with water, as the exposure to air can increase the risk of mold developing.

 

[Perris]

Have you ever read "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon Morell & Mary Enig PhD?

no I haven't; thanks for alerting me to its existence. I see that she has a website too, https://nourishingtraditions.com/
which will keep me busy while I wait for the book to arrive

 

[My Very First 6 Chickens]

I think you're over thinking and become a bit overwhelmed. I'm not an expert. I've only recently started fermenting feed. But I've run into some of the same issues.

I never liked the 'soup'..... seemed like wasted nutrient if they weren't going to drink it all. So I reduced the amount of liquid so that didn't happen. Now it's more of a wet porridge rather than a soup. There is no reason a short term ferment needs to be religiously immersed. For grains I now use a 1:1 by volume ratio. For pellets or crumble I use 1.5:1 water to feed ratio. It still ferments and I don't end up with a soup.

In a post here someone I was provided this link: https://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/ which seem the best simple mode guide I have found. Taking a lot hassle and worry out of it. Nor do they make it soupy.

Personally I think 'doubles the feed' is internet click bait bullshit. At worst it's increasing the quality or nutritional value of existing feed. At best they might eat a bit less. The studies I've read certainly go nowhere near claiming it halves the amount of food consumed. Never believe the internet.

If the duration of ferment isn't sitting well with you. Change it. In that kind of climate fermentation will be rapid. Especially if you are seeding each batch. Drop the time back to 24 hrs. It's OK to break rules to get a feel for things. Some fermentation is better than none. What you get in 24hrs might be equivalent to a more median climates 72 hrs. Less absolutely won't hurt.

As for the under weight. I would be guessing. But if you are assuming you're doubling the nutritional value that's your answer. In the few studies I've read you may increase protien content by a minimum of 10%. Maybe more depending on the nature of the feed and ferment. But never by 100%. So feed the equivalent in dry weight that they would normally eat. If they don't eat it all you can drop the amounts back. Then you have a basis to calculate savings on. Without some form of system/methodology you can't know of you are getting actual savings. If you can't specify the actual amount of savings, you can't know if it's actually a saving at all.

Hope this helps.

Make sure the underweight gals are getting a chance to eat and not being bullied. Good luck. I put the feed in a jar, cover with water and 24 hours later i offer it. I dont do it all the time. I get in a tizzy over my hens. Sometimes I need to step back and just chill out. They will be fine! This attitude took over 2 years to adapt, but, now, sometimes we ferment, sometimes we dont. You got this!